1 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:05,250 [Music] 2 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:06,930 [Laughter] 3 00:00:13,210 --> 00:00:20,050 [Music] 4 00:00:25,310 --> 00:00:22,490 welcome back everyone to another episode 5 00:00:27,170 --> 00:00:25,320 of liminal frames I'm Nathan and I'm 6 00:00:30,470 --> 00:00:27,180 joined by my friend and co-host Darren 7 00:00:32,810 --> 00:00:30,480 EXO academian uh Darren it's uh it's 8 00:00:34,729 --> 00:00:32,820 felt like a busy January a lot going on 9 00:00:37,549 --> 00:00:34,739 in my life and I know you've been quite 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:37,559 busy as well both professionally and in 11 00:00:41,750 --> 00:00:39,660 your personal life too 12 00:00:44,690 --> 00:00:41,760 um how's the new year going so far and 13 00:00:46,970 --> 00:00:44,700 uh what's on your mind 14 00:00:48,830 --> 00:00:46,980 well I'm I'm hoping and assuming that 15 00:00:50,810 --> 00:00:48,840 the pace will not keep up like it has 16 00:00:51,889 --> 00:00:50,820 for this month because if it does I 17 00:00:53,330 --> 00:00:51,899 don't know you know how I'm going to 18 00:00:55,610 --> 00:00:53,340 make it to the other side of the of the 19 00:00:58,490 --> 00:00:55,620 year because it's been just Breakneck 20 00:01:00,049 --> 00:00:58,500 Pace uh exciting but also you know 21 00:01:03,110 --> 00:01:00,059 sometimes overwhelming 22 00:01:05,810 --> 00:01:03,120 um but you know already uh you know 23 00:01:08,390 --> 00:01:05,820 things are beginning to resolve and a 24 00:01:10,250 --> 00:01:08,400 bit more clarity and uh a bit more 25 00:01:12,289 --> 00:01:10,260 grounded you know even a week from now I 26 00:01:13,789 --> 00:01:12,299 move into this new Cabin in the Woods 27 00:01:14,929 --> 00:01:13,799 that I purchased and I'm excited about 28 00:01:16,670 --> 00:01:14,939 that 29 00:01:18,890 --> 00:01:16,680 um because I've been living first I 30 00:01:20,570 --> 00:01:18,900 lived in a tiny cabin in the woods and a 31 00:01:22,550 --> 00:01:20,580 really really tiny cabin with no 32 00:01:24,649 --> 00:01:22,560 electricity and then have been staying 33 00:01:27,710 --> 00:01:24,659 in a hotel suite in Spartanburg South 34 00:01:29,410 --> 00:01:27,720 Carolina for a month and uh now finally 35 00:01:31,789 --> 00:01:29,420 getting ready to have a home base again 36 00:01:33,109 --> 00:01:31,799 uh which is going to be the Best of Both 37 00:01:36,469 --> 00:01:33,119 Worlds I think I'll I'll have 38 00:01:37,730 --> 00:01:36,479 electricity and internet connection but 39 00:01:39,289 --> 00:01:37,740 I will also be in the middle of the 40 00:01:41,569 --> 00:01:39,299 mountain woods so I'm looking forward to 41 00:01:44,510 --> 00:01:41,579 that and uh yeah exciting times ahead 42 00:01:46,850 --> 00:01:44,520 yeah it's super cool I know we've been 43 00:01:48,770 --> 00:01:46,860 talking about this for a long time and 44 00:01:51,109 --> 00:01:48,780 I'm excited to see this come to fruition 45 00:01:53,810 --> 00:01:51,119 for you uh and what lies ahead and it's 46 00:01:56,270 --> 00:01:53,820 gonna be very exciting year uh so 47 00:01:57,889 --> 00:01:56,280 there's a lot going on in uh at least it 48 00:02:01,990 --> 00:01:57,899 feels that way there's a lot happening 49 00:02:05,450 --> 00:02:02,000 in the UFO topic as of plate 50 00:02:08,990 --> 00:02:05,460 we get the sense that more is on the way 51 00:02:11,449 --> 00:02:09,000 there's a lot more coming but um you 52 00:02:13,430 --> 00:02:11,459 know as we often do when we're taking 53 00:02:15,530 --> 00:02:13,440 stock of the new information that that 54 00:02:17,630 --> 00:02:15,540 we're absorbing you know you and I talk 55 00:02:20,089 --> 00:02:17,640 a lot about the different kinds of 56 00:02:23,210 --> 00:02:20,099 models and Frameworks that that are 57 00:02:25,570 --> 00:02:23,220 quite popular in in UFO history and in 58 00:02:29,210 --> 00:02:25,580 contemporary you know ufological circles 59 00:02:31,729 --> 00:02:29,220 and how those models either either fit 60 00:02:33,890 --> 00:02:31,739 the data or don't fit the data you know 61 00:02:35,990 --> 00:02:33,900 why people you know kind of seem to 62 00:02:38,210 --> 00:02:36,000 Clump together in some of the camps and 63 00:02:41,570 --> 00:02:38,220 and some of the other camps over changes 64 00:02:43,009 --> 00:02:41,580 over time as well uh and so I think it'd 65 00:02:45,710 --> 00:02:43,019 be good for us to go through some of 66 00:02:47,869 --> 00:02:45,720 that together on this episode and kind 67 00:02:51,170 --> 00:02:47,879 of talk through some of these different 68 00:02:52,990 --> 00:02:51,180 narrative Frameworks uh and then maybe 69 00:02:55,250 --> 00:02:53,000 we can land on at the end of the episode 70 00:02:57,170 --> 00:02:55,260 uh whether or not those Frameworks are 71 00:02:59,330 --> 00:02:57,180 are valuable what parts the valuable 72 00:03:00,589 --> 00:02:59,340 parts that might not be and also just 73 00:03:03,470 --> 00:03:00,599 kind of where 74 00:03:05,509 --> 00:03:03,480 the data as far as you can see and I can 75 00:03:06,949 --> 00:03:05,519 too sort of fits into a larger pit 76 00:03:08,930 --> 00:03:06,959 picture than maybe those Frameworks 77 00:03:10,369 --> 00:03:08,940 themselves point to I don't know if you 78 00:03:12,470 --> 00:03:10,379 think about that 79 00:03:13,670 --> 00:03:12,480 yeah I'm excited about this because I 80 00:03:16,309 --> 00:03:13,680 think you know one thing that's 81 00:03:17,570 --> 00:03:16,319 definitely within our wheelhouse in 82 00:03:19,309 --> 00:03:17,580 terms of what we were trained in is 83 00:03:21,770 --> 00:03:19,319 understanding 84 00:03:24,050 --> 00:03:21,780 um the cultural milieu uh that gives 85 00:03:26,449 --> 00:03:24,060 birth to different narratives and 86 00:03:28,309 --> 00:03:26,459 different Dogma sets so there's always 87 00:03:31,009 --> 00:03:28,319 an interactive process there you know 88 00:03:34,729 --> 00:03:31,019 it's never that truth comes out and it's 89 00:03:37,190 --> 00:03:34,739 seen it's always that some kind of Truth 90 00:03:39,770 --> 00:03:37,200 emerges and then we as human beings 91 00:03:41,809 --> 00:03:39,780 carve that into a narrative there's 92 00:03:44,930 --> 00:03:41,819 something you might carve out you know a 93 00:03:47,089 --> 00:03:44,940 statue from Stone kind of thing but part 94 00:03:50,390 --> 00:03:47,099 of that process always involves the the 95 00:03:51,890 --> 00:03:50,400 context of the culture we're in and so 96 00:03:53,630 --> 00:03:51,900 you can see that looking back at 97 00:03:54,710 --> 00:03:53,640 religious history for instance and we 98 00:03:56,809 --> 00:03:54,720 often draw this parallel between 99 00:03:58,250 --> 00:03:56,819 religious history and ufology and even 100 00:04:00,229 --> 00:03:58,260 someone like Jacques Valley has talked a 101 00:04:02,750 --> 00:04:00,239 lot about that but I think it's worth 102 00:04:05,270 --> 00:04:02,760 you know really uh spending some time 103 00:04:07,369 --> 00:04:05,280 drilling down into how that process 104 00:04:10,429 --> 00:04:07,379 works the way that these different 105 00:04:12,350 --> 00:04:10,439 factors uh interact with each other and 106 00:04:14,330 --> 00:04:12,360 also people's personal histories and how 107 00:04:15,949 --> 00:04:14,340 that plays in I was reading some really 108 00:04:18,289 --> 00:04:15,959 interesting information about what makes 109 00:04:20,689 --> 00:04:18,299 some people more likely to believe a 110 00:04:22,310 --> 00:04:20,699 conspiracy theory than someone else and 111 00:04:25,490 --> 00:04:22,320 I'm talking about Beyond just the 112 00:04:27,830 --> 00:04:25,500 question of you know how much data backs 113 00:04:30,110 --> 00:04:27,840 that particular Theory but just what is 114 00:04:31,730 --> 00:04:30,120 it about in general that one person is 115 00:04:32,530 --> 00:04:31,740 more likely to steer that way than 116 00:04:35,330 --> 00:04:32,540 another 117 00:04:37,850 --> 00:04:35,340 and that's really interesting and we're 118 00:04:40,550 --> 00:04:37,860 in an interesting time as a culture too 119 00:04:41,570 --> 00:04:40,560 especially American society you know we 120 00:04:43,310 --> 00:04:41,580 were talking about this before it went 121 00:04:45,670 --> 00:04:43,320 on the air this notion of being in a 122 00:04:47,749 --> 00:04:45,680 post-truth world as my friend Ken Wilbur 123 00:04:50,030 --> 00:04:47,759 described it and what are the 124 00:04:52,550 --> 00:04:50,040 implications for that not just for the 125 00:04:53,990 --> 00:04:52,560 way we you have beliefs about government 126 00:04:55,969 --> 00:04:54,000 and the way the country should be run 127 00:04:58,070 --> 00:04:55,979 but even about you know what these 128 00:04:59,990 --> 00:04:58,080 others are doing and and there's so many 129 00:05:02,270 --> 00:05:00,000 factors and what's really fascinating is 130 00:05:03,909 --> 00:05:02,280 to pry it all apart and see how these 131 00:05:05,990 --> 00:05:03,919 sort of interact together 132 00:05:07,370 --> 00:05:06,000 and you brought us some Concepts there 133 00:05:09,650 --> 00:05:07,380 that I think are important in 134 00:05:12,050 --> 00:05:09,660 reiterating and that's that there are 135 00:05:14,390 --> 00:05:12,060 individual ways of looking at the world 136 00:05:17,090 --> 00:05:14,400 they're also societal ways of looking at 137 00:05:18,770 --> 00:05:17,100 the world and so if we take uh you know 138 00:05:21,530 --> 00:05:18,780 modern the modern world that we know 139 00:05:23,450 --> 00:05:21,540 that we're familiar with you can look at 140 00:05:25,189 --> 00:05:23,460 the different uh sort of large 141 00:05:27,409 --> 00:05:25,199 superpowers for example and the way that 142 00:05:30,469 --> 00:05:27,419 their societies are structured the way 143 00:05:32,689 --> 00:05:30,479 they function it they look at the world 144 00:05:35,510 --> 00:05:32,699 and have a model an operating model that 145 00:05:37,730 --> 00:05:35,520 that functions for them in a way and we 146 00:05:39,830 --> 00:05:37,740 can obviously critique the health or you 147 00:05:42,290 --> 00:05:39,840 know the the disease of that of that of 148 00:05:45,170 --> 00:05:42,300 that model but you know within those 149 00:05:47,210 --> 00:05:45,180 societies the the individuals have their 150 00:05:48,290 --> 00:05:47,220 own models and so you know we're always 151 00:05:50,270 --> 00:05:48,300 kind of playing with these different 152 00:05:51,529 --> 00:05:50,280 ideas and I think that's important the 153 00:05:53,689 --> 00:05:51,539 reason why I bring it up and just kind 154 00:05:55,730 --> 00:05:53,699 of want to hammer at home is that 155 00:05:58,909 --> 00:05:55,740 if we're dealing with a phenomena that 156 00:06:01,090 --> 00:05:58,919 it has a variety of different uh parties 157 00:06:04,610 --> 00:06:01,100 a variety of different other entities 158 00:06:07,370 --> 00:06:04,620 and other groups they're going to be 159 00:06:10,129 --> 00:06:07,380 subject to the same kinds of uh 160 00:06:12,529 --> 00:06:10,139 operating you know sort of uh tendencies 161 00:06:15,050 --> 00:06:12,539 that that we are right so we have a we 162 00:06:16,969 --> 00:06:15,060 have a we talked about this a little bit 163 00:06:18,350 --> 00:06:16,979 you know when we're operating in a low 164 00:06:21,050 --> 00:06:18,360 information Zone we have a tendency to 165 00:06:22,850 --> 00:06:21,060 really flatten uh the model or flatten 166 00:06:25,909 --> 00:06:22,860 our understanding of how quote unquote 167 00:06:28,909 --> 00:06:25,919 they are but if we're really taking an 168 00:06:30,469 --> 00:06:28,919 expansive view unpacking it all thinking 169 00:06:32,390 --> 00:06:30,479 through it and we're honest with 170 00:06:34,490 --> 00:06:32,400 ourselves we have to come to the place 171 00:06:36,170 --> 00:06:34,500 where we can say look there there's not 172 00:06:38,390 --> 00:06:36,180 one agenda at play there's not one way 173 00:06:39,770 --> 00:06:38,400 that they that these others happen to be 174 00:06:41,990 --> 00:06:39,780 there's a lot of different things 175 00:06:43,550 --> 00:06:42,000 happening and even within groups that 176 00:06:45,050 --> 00:06:43,560 might be the same group there are a 177 00:06:46,309 --> 00:06:45,060 variety of different things happening so 178 00:06:47,930 --> 00:06:46,319 I know we're going to come back to that 179 00:06:49,850 --> 00:06:47,940 a little bit as we kind of go through 180 00:06:51,590 --> 00:06:49,860 these different models of themselves but 181 00:06:53,570 --> 00:06:51,600 I think it's important that we we 182 00:06:55,249 --> 00:06:53,580 reiterate that point 183 00:06:57,170 --> 00:06:55,259 right and I think you know you and I 184 00:07:00,529 --> 00:06:57,180 were talking about how we wanted to sort 185 00:07:03,249 --> 00:07:00,539 of steer this episode and we both want 186 00:07:06,409 --> 00:07:03,259 to you know take a 187 00:07:08,990 --> 00:07:06,419 magnifying glass to what we believe or 188 00:07:11,570 --> 00:07:09,000 what we assess is going on as much as we 189 00:07:13,309 --> 00:07:11,580 can but also look at some of the 190 00:07:14,809 --> 00:07:13,319 historical narratives and the different 191 00:07:17,450 --> 00:07:14,819 groups that have 192 00:07:19,189 --> 00:07:17,460 um emerged within ufology saying a 193 00:07:20,629 --> 00:07:19,199 certain thing about it's really this or 194 00:07:22,790 --> 00:07:20,639 another group saying no actually it's 195 00:07:25,129 --> 00:07:22,800 this and it's like diametrically opposed 196 00:07:27,170 --> 00:07:25,139 about the same data set so that's an 197 00:07:28,490 --> 00:07:27,180 interesting process in itself so we want 198 00:07:30,950 --> 00:07:28,500 to take some time and go through each of 199 00:07:32,330 --> 00:07:30,960 those talk about ways that data supports 200 00:07:34,909 --> 00:07:32,340 those different perspectives and maybe 201 00:07:37,249 --> 00:07:34,919 some ways it doesn't and also parse out 202 00:07:39,170 --> 00:07:37,259 all the different factors that make 203 00:07:41,510 --> 00:07:39,180 people tend to believe those things or 204 00:07:43,309 --> 00:07:41,520 not and then also in the end sort of 205 00:07:46,249 --> 00:07:43,319 steer that to where 206 00:07:48,650 --> 00:07:46,259 um you know I I sort of gather what I do 207 00:07:50,870 --> 00:07:48,660 about what's going on and and I want to 208 00:07:53,450 --> 00:07:50,880 sort of give some reasons why 209 00:07:55,610 --> 00:07:53,460 um it looks that way to me and and but 210 00:07:57,290 --> 00:07:55,620 also give it that that magnifying glass 211 00:07:59,330 --> 00:07:57,300 that we're going to equally apply to 212 00:08:01,070 --> 00:07:59,340 these other ones as well 213 00:08:03,170 --> 00:08:01,080 great all right well let's get started 214 00:08:05,210 --> 00:08:03,180 uh I think the first one that seems like 215 00:08:06,830 --> 00:08:05,220 the best jumping off point if we're 216 00:08:09,890 --> 00:08:06,840 going to look at this in a almost like a 217 00:08:12,350 --> 00:08:09,900 chronology is this uh the model of the 218 00:08:14,990 --> 00:08:12,360 demons and angels uh you know of light 219 00:08:16,909 --> 00:08:15,000 and dark Forces uh we've talked about 220 00:08:17,870 --> 00:08:16,919 this before on liminal frames so if 221 00:08:19,490 --> 00:08:17,880 you've been with us from the very 222 00:08:21,290 --> 00:08:19,500 beginning we've definitely spent some 223 00:08:23,450 --> 00:08:21,300 time looking at this model in more 224 00:08:26,390 --> 00:08:23,460 detail but 225 00:08:28,610 --> 00:08:26,400 why I guess first of all how long do you 226 00:08:30,469 --> 00:08:28,620 think that that particular model of of 227 00:08:33,469 --> 00:08:30,479 interaction with others with other 228 00:08:35,389 --> 00:08:33,479 forces has been at work and then you 229 00:08:38,570 --> 00:08:35,399 know another question I would ask is why 230 00:08:40,969 --> 00:08:38,580 is that one uh so meaningful or powerful 231 00:08:43,670 --> 00:08:40,979 to those who have adopted it not only 232 00:08:46,610 --> 00:08:43,680 individuals but perhaps larger you know 233 00:08:48,170 --> 00:08:46,620 States and and organizations 234 00:08:49,250 --> 00:08:48,180 well we can go back and forth on this 235 00:08:50,750 --> 00:08:49,260 one because I think there's a few 236 00:08:52,790 --> 00:08:50,760 interesting points to hit and like you 237 00:08:54,230 --> 00:08:52,800 say we've discussed this before so we 238 00:08:56,570 --> 00:08:54,240 want to maybe look at some different 239 00:08:58,250 --> 00:08:56,580 issues that we haven't addressed before 240 00:09:00,889 --> 00:08:58,260 one thing I would point out that you 241 00:09:03,710 --> 00:09:00,899 know was part of my biblical studies uh 242 00:09:06,350 --> 00:09:03,720 program was recognizing that 243 00:09:08,930 --> 00:09:06,360 we apply all of these anachronisms to 244 00:09:10,310 --> 00:09:08,940 our study of these ancient cultures and 245 00:09:13,910 --> 00:09:10,320 the way that they thought about these 246 00:09:15,410 --> 00:09:13,920 things so we for instance have a certain 247 00:09:17,269 --> 00:09:15,420 way of viewing the world and again when 248 00:09:19,070 --> 00:09:17,279 you grow up in a society in a 249 00:09:20,630 --> 00:09:19,080 civilization you you inherit those 250 00:09:23,030 --> 00:09:20,640 classes and you forget that you're 251 00:09:24,710 --> 00:09:23,040 wearing them and so you you think it's 252 00:09:26,750 --> 00:09:24,720 sort of just part and parcel with truth 253 00:09:28,610 --> 00:09:26,760 or perceiving the world 254 00:09:30,230 --> 00:09:28,620 but what happens is we then go and try 255 00:09:32,090 --> 00:09:30,240 to study what these ancient cultures 256 00:09:35,030 --> 00:09:32,100 believed about reality 257 00:09:37,130 --> 00:09:35,040 and we apply the same filters as if they 258 00:09:39,170 --> 00:09:37,140 had the same filters we do of course we 259 00:09:40,550 --> 00:09:39,180 do that because it's so close to our 260 00:09:43,670 --> 00:09:40,560 nose that we don't see it as a filter 261 00:09:45,650 --> 00:09:43,680 but of course it is so for instance when 262 00:09:47,870 --> 00:09:45,660 you look at something like the gospels 263 00:09:50,210 --> 00:09:47,880 in the New Testament you know some 264 00:09:52,090 --> 00:09:50,220 people today really wrestle over why are 265 00:09:54,110 --> 00:09:52,100 these why are there these um 266 00:09:56,030 --> 00:09:54,120 incongruencies with between the 267 00:09:57,350 --> 00:09:56,040 different ways that it was described 268 00:09:59,150 --> 00:09:57,360 that Jesus went around and did certain 269 00:10:00,949 --> 00:09:59,160 things and in what order and who is he 270 00:10:03,170 --> 00:10:00,959 talking to and why is some of the 271 00:10:05,150 --> 00:10:03,180 language different and and you know 272 00:10:07,550 --> 00:10:05,160 things you don't have like this with a 273 00:10:09,650 --> 00:10:07,560 newspaper a situation where the LA Times 274 00:10:11,329 --> 00:10:09,660 and the New York Times uh you know in 275 00:10:12,590 --> 00:10:11,339 the Chicago Tribune are all reporting on 276 00:10:14,030 --> 00:10:12,600 the same event and it's all pretty much 277 00:10:16,370 --> 00:10:14,040 the same with just a few different words 278 00:10:18,769 --> 00:10:16,380 you actually get some some different 279 00:10:20,930 --> 00:10:18,779 constructions all together which makes 280 00:10:23,030 --> 00:10:20,940 some people from our contemporary 281 00:10:25,430 --> 00:10:23,040 Society struggle and say well how can 282 00:10:27,350 --> 00:10:25,440 that be the same event when it's 283 00:10:29,090 --> 00:10:27,360 described in such different ways but 284 00:10:30,410 --> 00:10:29,100 it's because their relationship with 285 00:10:32,930 --> 00:10:30,420 truth was different or their 286 00:10:35,509 --> 00:10:32,940 relationship with this sort of sense of 287 00:10:37,070 --> 00:10:35,519 there being an objective stance and that 288 00:10:39,370 --> 00:10:37,080 a journalistic perspective should always 289 00:10:41,509 --> 00:10:39,380 be to try to arrive at that objectivity 290 00:10:43,009 --> 00:10:41,519 that really wasn't their perspective 291 00:10:46,490 --> 00:10:43,019 back then so they didn't see it as 292 00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:46,500 violating some sort of true standard to 293 00:10:51,710 --> 00:10:48,720 um kind of put some propaganda together 294 00:10:53,810 --> 00:10:51,720 and actually you know put forward a an 295 00:10:56,150 --> 00:10:53,820 agenda that you're trying to persuade 296 00:10:58,370 --> 00:10:56,160 people with so that's an example right 297 00:10:59,930 --> 00:10:58,380 away off the bat of how 298 00:11:01,610 --> 00:10:59,940 um some of the ways they looked at 299 00:11:03,949 --> 00:11:01,620 things were different than us 300 00:11:07,370 --> 00:11:03,959 but what I will say also in terms of 301 00:11:08,449 --> 00:11:07,380 this Angels and Demons thing is that and 302 00:11:09,949 --> 00:11:08,459 I want to give it back to you to give 303 00:11:11,630 --> 00:11:09,959 some of your thoughts but I'll just say 304 00:11:12,769 --> 00:11:11,640 this that is that we have to remember 305 00:11:14,870 --> 00:11:12,779 that 306 00:11:17,269 --> 00:11:14,880 there is raw experience and then there's 307 00:11:19,670 --> 00:11:17,279 interpretation of experience and what so 308 00:11:21,410 --> 00:11:19,680 many people in ufology seem to miss and 309 00:11:24,350 --> 00:11:21,420 even people that are you know religious 310 00:11:25,730 --> 00:11:24,360 fundamentalists and whatnot seem to miss 311 00:11:27,290 --> 00:11:25,740 is that 312 00:11:29,810 --> 00:11:27,300 to say 313 00:11:31,250 --> 00:11:29,820 that it's Angels and Demons just kind of 314 00:11:33,949 --> 00:11:31,260 begs the question because that's an 315 00:11:36,769 --> 00:11:33,959 interpretive perspective on a Raw event 316 00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:36,779 right there's no doubt the raw events 317 00:11:39,230 --> 00:11:37,920 have been happening they're happening 318 00:11:40,670 --> 00:11:39,240 now and they were happening in ancient 319 00:11:43,130 --> 00:11:40,680 history 320 00:11:44,810 --> 00:11:43,140 but to just adopt a particular 321 00:11:47,509 --> 00:11:44,820 interpreter perspective of that Raw 322 00:11:49,069 --> 00:11:47,519 event just because it's older seems kind 323 00:11:52,250 --> 00:11:49,079 of ludicrous to me like we need to 324 00:11:53,389 --> 00:11:52,260 actually say let's break down to get to 325 00:11:54,590 --> 00:11:53,399 the raw level and that's kind of what 326 00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:54,600 Jacques filet was really good about 327 00:11:59,150 --> 00:11:57,120 doing was saying take off the surface 328 00:12:01,250 --> 00:11:59,160 veneer the interpretive layer 329 00:12:02,810 --> 00:12:01,260 these events seem to 330 00:12:06,110 --> 00:12:02,820 um you know contain some remarkably 331 00:12:08,389 --> 00:12:06,120 similar details similar criteria so that 332 00:12:10,790 --> 00:12:08,399 says something's been going on but we 333 00:12:12,829 --> 00:12:10,800 almost need to you know pull out the the 334 00:12:15,530 --> 00:12:12,839 raw experience from the interpretive 335 00:12:18,470 --> 00:12:15,540 grid so we can begin to move forward in 336 00:12:19,550 --> 00:12:18,480 a more objective way uh in time in terms 337 00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:19,560 of trying to figure out what is actually 338 00:12:24,230 --> 00:12:22,800 going on and what it means mm-hmm yeah 339 00:12:26,210 --> 00:12:24,240 and I and with this one in particular 340 00:12:27,769 --> 00:12:26,220 too I think we really lose sight of the 341 00:12:29,269 --> 00:12:27,779 fact at least I'm going to say we I'm 342 00:12:32,509 --> 00:12:29,279 really talking about those of us in the 343 00:12:36,110 --> 00:12:32,519 west that this is this way of thinking 344 00:12:38,449 --> 00:12:36,120 about uh the larger reality has been a 345 00:12:41,690 --> 00:12:38,459 part of our kind of cultural DNA for 346 00:12:44,990 --> 00:12:41,700 centuries right so this notion of the 347 00:12:48,290 --> 00:12:45,000 battle of good versus evil and uh that 348 00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:48,300 there is this sort of uh overarching uh 349 00:12:53,870 --> 00:12:51,360 deity who's who's got it who's who's the 350 00:12:55,730 --> 00:12:53,880 king of of all that there is and you 351 00:12:57,949 --> 00:12:55,740 know it's marshalling these forces in 352 00:13:00,350 --> 00:12:57,959 opposition to the forces of Darkness I 353 00:13:02,449 --> 00:13:00,360 mean all of this stuff is part is just I 354 00:13:04,550 --> 00:13:02,459 mean you can't breathe the air of 355 00:13:07,129 --> 00:13:04,560 Western life without it being in that 356 00:13:10,190 --> 00:13:07,139 air it's just there and the way that 357 00:13:11,870 --> 00:13:10,200 that way of looking at at the world uh 358 00:13:15,290 --> 00:13:11,880 in the way that that model has been 359 00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:15,300 co-opted by governments and and state 360 00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:18,240 Authority like it's it's hard to ignore 361 00:13:23,150 --> 00:13:21,060 right so there is a there's there's an 362 00:13:26,090 --> 00:13:23,160 intricate link not only that on a 363 00:13:28,670 --> 00:13:26,100 personal level uh from this uh and you 364 00:13:30,470 --> 00:13:28,680 hear a lot about spiritual warfare or uh 365 00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:30,480 you know that there's you know that your 366 00:13:35,269 --> 00:13:32,880 your soul is kind kind of uh almost like 367 00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:35,279 a in a tug of war match between the 368 00:13:40,250 --> 00:13:37,560 forces of Darkness and Light so not only 369 00:13:44,389 --> 00:13:40,260 is that happening but there's a benefit 370 00:13:48,650 --> 00:13:44,399 to these states to state power to to 371 00:13:51,170 --> 00:13:48,660 adopt reinforce and emulate the concepts 372 00:13:53,629 --> 00:13:51,180 that are that are found in this model 373 00:13:56,990 --> 00:13:53,639 and this operating model of the cosmos 374 00:13:59,210 --> 00:13:57,000 right so if the king is aligned with uh 375 00:14:01,310 --> 00:13:59,220 with the forces of good it went into the 376 00:14:03,170 --> 00:14:01,320 force of good is the creator of all that 377 00:14:05,870 --> 00:14:03,180 there is well geez like you better not 378 00:14:08,509 --> 00:14:05,880 say no to the king and the same is true 379 00:14:11,389 --> 00:14:08,519 for you know the you know the United 380 00:14:13,910 --> 00:14:11,399 States and it's kind of manifest destiny 381 00:14:15,889 --> 00:14:13,920 concept the light on a hill you know 382 00:14:18,350 --> 00:14:15,899 taking all these Concepts and and just 383 00:14:20,930 --> 00:14:18,360 amplifying them to the nth degree 384 00:14:22,850 --> 00:14:20,940 and so uh it's not hard to understand 385 00:14:24,769 --> 00:14:22,860 how you had folks that were working 386 00:14:27,230 --> 00:14:24,779 within these kind of bureaucracies and 387 00:14:29,810 --> 00:14:27,240 whatnot that that were living and 388 00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:29,820 breathing that this way of thinking both 389 00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:31,920 implicitly and explicitly and then 390 00:14:35,449 --> 00:14:33,839 encountering this kind of phenomenon as 391 00:14:37,370 --> 00:14:35,459 you said this raw experience and then 392 00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:37,380 laying on top of that well I mean this 393 00:14:40,970 --> 00:14:39,120 must be Angels and Demons we're just 394 00:14:42,530 --> 00:14:40,980 part of this Cosmic battle you know oh 395 00:14:44,269 --> 00:14:42,540 it's the Book of Revelation you know the 396 00:14:46,730 --> 00:14:44,279 end times are near like you know it's 397 00:14:49,250 --> 00:14:46,740 all a nice kind of packaged up little 398 00:14:51,470 --> 00:14:49,260 thing that works really well not only 399 00:14:53,990 --> 00:14:51,480 for their own way of coping in the world 400 00:14:57,650 --> 00:14:54,000 but but for their states to continue 401 00:14:59,930 --> 00:14:57,660 doing what what the state wants to do 402 00:15:01,850 --> 00:14:59,940 yeah there's so much to unpack here and 403 00:15:03,889 --> 00:15:01,860 we do want to turn this just into a 404 00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:03,899 religious studies episode but 405 00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:06,240 um just to spend a bit more time here 406 00:15:10,730 --> 00:15:08,639 I'd say a couple things one when you 407 00:15:12,050 --> 00:15:10,740 rightly pointed out that we often reduce 408 00:15:13,310 --> 00:15:12,060 this in the west to a battle between 409 00:15:14,870 --> 00:15:13,320 good and evil 410 00:15:17,090 --> 00:15:14,880 I just want to point out 411 00:15:18,710 --> 00:15:17,100 that it wasn't always that way and even 412 00:15:21,949 --> 00:15:18,720 when you look at the 413 00:15:24,889 --> 00:15:21,959 the older Traditions that gave birth to 414 00:15:27,410 --> 00:15:24,899 Christianity and the textual Traditions 415 00:15:29,150 --> 00:15:27,420 that were inheritances of oral 416 00:15:32,030 --> 00:15:29,160 Traditions that you know pre-date 417 00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:32,040 Christianity there really wasn't this 418 00:15:36,769 --> 00:15:34,320 Stark difference of a battle between 419 00:15:40,069 --> 00:15:36,779 good and evil There Was You know the the 420 00:15:42,530 --> 00:15:40,079 the satanic kind of figure was a member 421 00:15:44,269 --> 00:15:42,540 of the Council of the godhead and sort 422 00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:44,279 of was a 423 00:15:49,430 --> 00:15:46,320 um an agent of 424 00:15:51,530 --> 00:15:49,440 refining fire for the individuals that 425 00:15:53,329 --> 00:15:51,540 were trying to spiritually mature and so 426 00:15:55,490 --> 00:15:53,339 almost like a devil's advocate there you 427 00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:55,500 have that word devil right but but in 428 00:15:59,210 --> 00:15:57,120 other words it was part of the process 429 00:16:01,370 --> 00:15:59,220 of refining us and helping us to grow 430 00:16:03,050 --> 00:16:01,380 that we were being tested basically but 431 00:16:05,689 --> 00:16:03,060 testing for the greater Goods that we 432 00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:05,699 would grow and mature then over time as 433 00:16:10,970 --> 00:16:08,399 we in the west really Embrace this black 434 00:16:13,730 --> 00:16:10,980 and white dark versus light 435 00:16:16,670 --> 00:16:13,740 um kind of dichotomy then this Satan 436 00:16:18,290 --> 00:16:16,680 figure was kind of personified as this 437 00:16:19,970 --> 00:16:18,300 always existing or almost always 438 00:16:22,370 --> 00:16:19,980 existing it was a creation of God 439 00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:22,380 according to this narrative but you know 440 00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:24,720 the greatest creation of all and it fell 441 00:16:28,129 --> 00:16:26,399 and you know the bigger they are the 442 00:16:30,530 --> 00:16:28,139 harder they fall right 443 00:16:32,990 --> 00:16:30,540 um and then was in battle eternally with 444 00:16:34,670 --> 00:16:33,000 God ever since then so what's 445 00:16:36,590 --> 00:16:34,680 interesting is when I was you know in 446 00:16:39,050 --> 00:16:36,600 those circles I remember I spent part of 447 00:16:41,090 --> 00:16:39,060 my many iterations uh you know in 448 00:16:43,129 --> 00:16:41,100 Eastern Orthodox circles and what 449 00:16:44,689 --> 00:16:43,139 shocked my Evangelical friends 450 00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:44,699 was that the Eastern Orthodox who 451 00:16:48,710 --> 00:16:47,040 actually pray for Satan so they would 452 00:16:50,810 --> 00:16:48,720 pray that Satan would come around you 453 00:16:53,449 --> 00:16:50,820 know kind of kind of see see the big 454 00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:53,459 picture again whereas in the west that 455 00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:55,440 notion is because again Eastern orthoxy 456 00:16:59,590 --> 00:16:57,360 you know we're talking uh Russia there 457 00:17:01,970 --> 00:16:59,600 basically so some differences in in 458 00:17:03,290 --> 00:17:01,980 reality perspectives right so in the 459 00:17:05,929 --> 00:17:03,300 west we have this black and white 460 00:17:08,569 --> 00:17:05,939 dichotomy good versus evil so you can't 461 00:17:10,549 --> 00:17:08,579 go around praying for you know 462 00:17:11,990 --> 00:17:10,559 personified evil how's that going to 463 00:17:14,030 --> 00:17:12,000 work right but from an Eastern 464 00:17:16,490 --> 00:17:14,040 perspective he's just another he it 465 00:17:18,049 --> 00:17:16,500 whatever is another creation that can 466 00:17:21,650 --> 00:17:18,059 come around and see things from the big 467 00:17:22,970 --> 00:17:21,660 picture in the long run yeah and I we've 468 00:17:24,590 --> 00:17:22,980 been talking about Alan Watts a lot 469 00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:24,600 lately and I'm reading a book that he 470 00:17:29,510 --> 00:17:27,120 wrote all the two hands of God and uh 471 00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:29,520 one thing that he he talks about in this 472 00:17:35,690 --> 00:17:33,480 notion of kind of the radical uh 473 00:17:38,090 --> 00:17:35,700 you know sort of Leaning into the force 474 00:17:42,350 --> 00:17:38,100 of good over against the force of evil 475 00:17:45,350 --> 00:17:42,360 is that at a certain point that in order 476 00:17:46,789 --> 00:17:45,360 for good to Prevail in the way that uh 477 00:17:49,490 --> 00:17:46,799 you know kind of Western Christianity 478 00:17:52,850 --> 00:17:49,500 has adopted it basically has to become 479 00:17:55,669 --> 00:17:52,860 evil it essentially becomes so fixated 480 00:17:58,970 --> 00:17:55,679 on the eradication of of evil that it 481 00:18:01,789 --> 00:17:58,980 itself like adopts the same kinds of uh 482 00:18:04,190 --> 00:18:01,799 qualities that that we attribute to evil 483 00:18:06,409 --> 00:18:04,200 and so you know you can see this and and 484 00:18:08,930 --> 00:18:06,419 you know not to get on a soapbox or 485 00:18:10,490 --> 00:18:08,940 anything of that that the sword but you 486 00:18:12,830 --> 00:18:10,500 know when you're looking at uh like what 487 00:18:14,270 --> 00:18:12,840 what western military power for example 488 00:18:16,130 --> 00:18:14,280 you know like we're trying to be 489 00:18:18,409 --> 00:18:16,140 peacekeepers in the world that's kind of 490 00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:18,419 the positive spin on it but but you know 491 00:18:23,390 --> 00:18:20,160 well we kind of need the best the best 492 00:18:24,590 --> 00:18:23,400 uh uh you know defense is a good offense 493 00:18:25,789 --> 00:18:24,600 right so we're going to go out there 494 00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:25,799 we're going to we're going to flex our 495 00:18:30,289 --> 00:18:27,600 muscles and we're gonna maybe do more 496 00:18:32,870 --> 00:18:30,299 than we need to do and maybe you know 497 00:18:35,270 --> 00:18:32,880 push the the boundaries a little bit 498 00:18:37,010 --> 00:18:35,280 maybe in an uncomfortable way but all 499 00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:37,020 because we you know in the service of 500 00:18:40,789 --> 00:18:38,640 the greater good right so you can just 501 00:18:43,250 --> 00:18:40,799 you make sort of justification for the 502 00:18:45,950 --> 00:18:43,260 use of force to a certain degree so 503 00:18:49,250 --> 00:18:45,960 again like just bringing all that up to 504 00:18:51,529 --> 00:18:49,260 say like this is a very powerful model a 505 00:18:54,350 --> 00:18:51,539 very powerful way of looking at reality 506 00:18:56,270 --> 00:18:54,360 and particularly in in the last several 507 00:18:57,590 --> 00:18:56,280 centuries right in the expansion of the 508 00:19:00,289 --> 00:18:57,600 western world 509 00:19:02,390 --> 00:19:00,299 this model has been front and center and 510 00:19:04,490 --> 00:19:02,400 a part of uh you know pretty much any 511 00:19:08,090 --> 00:19:04,500 Authority that has existed on the planet 512 00:19:09,890 --> 00:19:08,100 at least in the human sense uh and and 513 00:19:11,810 --> 00:19:09,900 when you have encounters with the others 514 00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:11,820 come into the picture it's just it's 515 00:19:18,350 --> 00:19:14,960 it's it's very easy to understand why 516 00:19:20,890 --> 00:19:18,360 they've got folded right into this you 517 00:19:23,630 --> 00:19:20,900 know demons angels 518 00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:23,640 conception it's just it was what other 519 00:19:26,570 --> 00:19:24,960 way would they have thought about it 520 00:19:28,909 --> 00:19:26,580 right they had no other framework by 521 00:19:30,590 --> 00:19:28,919 which to approach it and it and it also 522 00:19:32,450 --> 00:19:30,600 just buttressed what they already wanted 523 00:19:34,549 --> 00:19:32,460 to believe 524 00:19:35,810 --> 00:19:34,559 right absolutely I think there's two key 525 00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:35,820 points to make there that I think will 526 00:19:39,830 --> 00:19:37,440 help drill at home for people 527 00:19:42,289 --> 00:19:39,840 number one as I mentioned before so I 528 00:19:45,409 --> 00:19:42,299 won't go into it into too much detail 529 00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:45,419 you kind of have this three aspects to 530 00:19:49,909 --> 00:19:48,000 reality right you have humans and 531 00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:49,919 animals in the middle World kind of 532 00:19:53,750 --> 00:19:51,600 thing this also shows up Ironically in 533 00:19:54,950 --> 00:19:53,760 some versions of shamanic culture but 534 00:19:56,870 --> 00:19:54,960 you have this kind of middle world where 535 00:19:58,850 --> 00:19:56,880 we exist with the animals and then you 536 00:20:00,650 --> 00:19:58,860 have the spirit world which is divided 537 00:20:02,810 --> 00:20:00,660 up into the good and the bad right the 538 00:20:06,650 --> 00:20:02,820 light and the dark the demons and the 539 00:20:09,590 --> 00:20:06,660 Angels or God the father and Satan so 540 00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:09,600 yes what happens is when you have that 541 00:20:13,250 --> 00:20:11,820 kind of azure working model and you come 542 00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:13,260 across beings that are clearly not 543 00:20:17,690 --> 00:20:15,600 humans or animals from you know this 544 00:20:19,130 --> 00:20:17,700 Earth that we understand then you go 545 00:20:20,990 --> 00:20:19,140 okay so they fall into one of these 546 00:20:22,310 --> 00:20:21,000 other two categories which one is it oh 547 00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:22,320 some negative things are happening here 548 00:20:25,490 --> 00:20:24,240 those have got to be demons some good 549 00:20:26,930 --> 00:20:25,500 things are happening over here even 550 00:20:29,210 --> 00:20:26,940 though you don't get that talked about 551 00:20:30,409 --> 00:20:29,220 as much but if they do acknowledge it 552 00:20:32,990 --> 00:20:30,419 they'll say okay so maybe that's an 553 00:20:36,710 --> 00:20:33,000 angel but again it's sort of cookie 554 00:20:38,210 --> 00:20:36,720 cutter fitting these vast this past 555 00:20:40,010 --> 00:20:38,220 array of phenomena 556 00:20:42,529 --> 00:20:40,020 with so many different phenomenological 557 00:20:46,190 --> 00:20:42,539 aspects to it so many gradations right 558 00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:46,200 so much gray in there no pun intended uh 559 00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:48,240 that that you know you realize that it's 560 00:20:52,730 --> 00:20:50,880 really doing a disservice to the data to 561 00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:52,740 try to chunk it into these three levels 562 00:20:57,049 --> 00:20:55,440 or two levels of the spirit world on top 563 00:20:59,690 --> 00:20:57,059 of the human animal world that we exist 564 00:21:01,370 --> 00:21:00,830 yeah 565 00:21:02,810 --> 00:21:01,380 um 566 00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:02,820 so many things came to mind there just 567 00:21:06,650 --> 00:21:04,559 as we were talking there's a lot of 568 00:21:08,510 --> 00:21:06,660 ground to cover let's put it that way 569 00:21:10,970 --> 00:21:08,520 um with that particular model and why 570 00:21:14,090 --> 00:21:10,980 it's so why it had such 571 00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:14,100 sticking power staying power right 572 00:21:18,529 --> 00:21:16,559 um but as uh you know looking at the 573 00:21:22,430 --> 00:21:18,539 20th century and you know as sort of 574 00:21:23,810 --> 00:21:22,440 different uh encounters came to light uh 575 00:21:25,070 --> 00:21:23,820 you know certainly stories that we've 576 00:21:27,890 --> 00:21:25,080 heard about 577 00:21:30,169 --> 00:21:27,900 um in the UFO phenomena you know some 578 00:21:33,649 --> 00:21:30,179 other theories began to emerge and 579 00:21:35,690 --> 00:21:33,659 looking at those you can see how the 580 00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:35,700 times were changing right so that that 581 00:21:40,549 --> 00:21:38,400 model that certainly again was just 582 00:21:42,430 --> 00:21:40,559 talked about very you know ever present 583 00:21:44,930 --> 00:21:42,440 uh maybe the silver predominant one 584 00:21:47,090 --> 00:21:44,940 began to see some of its ground some of 585 00:21:48,890 --> 00:21:47,100 explanatory power to some other models 586 00:21:51,409 --> 00:21:48,900 with respect to these encounters with 587 00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:51,419 these others in particular I can think 588 00:21:57,169 --> 00:21:54,240 of uh the Extraterrestrial 589 00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:57,179 uh model so that you know we we now have 590 00:22:03,049 --> 00:22:00,320 not not a demon uh per se but an 591 00:22:05,029 --> 00:22:03,059 extraterrestrial from another planet you 592 00:22:07,909 --> 00:22:05,039 know in the solar system in the Galaxy 593 00:22:10,190 --> 00:22:07,919 that is coming to visit Earth uh and 594 00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:10,200 that that model really you can see it 595 00:22:15,409 --> 00:22:12,240 come to prominence with the rise of our 596 00:22:17,630 --> 00:22:15,419 own space program uh the rise of of uh 597 00:22:19,549 --> 00:22:17,640 20th century scientism 598 00:22:23,450 --> 00:22:19,559 um you know mapping our scientific 599 00:22:25,370 --> 00:22:23,460 Endeavors onto these uh entities they 600 00:22:27,470 --> 00:22:25,380 must also be you know scientists 601 00:22:30,169 --> 00:22:27,480 explorers astronauts just coming to 602 00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:30,179 visit us right so you can easily see why 603 00:22:34,970 --> 00:22:32,159 we found that model to be pretty 604 00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:34,980 compelling uh and it also ignited the 605 00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:36,720 imagination at a time when we were 606 00:22:42,049 --> 00:22:39,360 seeing explosion in technology and an 607 00:22:44,990 --> 00:22:42,059 explosion of Discovery with respect to 608 00:22:46,730 --> 00:22:45,000 our own uh our own Galaxy and solar 609 00:22:49,250 --> 00:22:46,740 system so all these things really kind 610 00:22:51,549 --> 00:22:49,260 of coincided at just the right time and 611 00:22:53,570 --> 00:22:51,559 that model began to become a lot more 612 00:22:55,970 --> 00:22:53,580 prominent at least in the public imagine 613 00:22:57,529 --> 00:22:55,980 it and and maybe you know that would be 614 00:22:59,149 --> 00:22:57,539 different with those that were dealing 615 00:23:00,590 --> 00:22:59,159 with it on a personal level we can come 616 00:23:02,149 --> 00:23:00,600 back to that they put a pin in that 617 00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:02,159 topic those that you know maybe within 618 00:23:05,270 --> 00:23:03,360 the military that were dealing with it 619 00:23:07,730 --> 00:23:05,280 on a more intimate level they may have 620 00:23:10,430 --> 00:23:07,740 still held on to that and the demon uh 621 00:23:12,409 --> 00:23:10,440 conception but the public at large you 622 00:23:14,210 --> 00:23:12,419 know from the movies and the comics and 623 00:23:16,190 --> 00:23:14,220 and uh the narrative 624 00:23:17,930 --> 00:23:16,200 ETS were kind of everywhere 625 00:23:19,549 --> 00:23:17,940 um so what what would you say about that 626 00:23:20,810 --> 00:23:19,559 and uh how do you want to unpack that 627 00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:20,820 one 628 00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:24,240 is again just to help people recognize 629 00:23:28,130 --> 00:23:25,200 how 630 00:23:30,590 --> 00:23:28,140 World Views shape 631 00:23:32,570 --> 00:23:30,600 our interpretation of data more so than 632 00:23:35,330 --> 00:23:32,580 the data does in a raw sense 633 00:23:37,549 --> 00:23:35,340 is that even within religious circles 634 00:23:39,409 --> 00:23:37,559 that we just described there are some 635 00:23:42,649 --> 00:23:39,419 differences so the most fundamentalist 636 00:23:44,210 --> 00:23:42,659 groups really don't think that there's 637 00:23:46,190 --> 00:23:44,220 life elsewhere in the universe because 638 00:23:47,930 --> 00:23:46,200 the Bible doesn't literally describe it 639 00:23:50,090 --> 00:23:47,940 or you could say that sometimes they do 640 00:23:52,010 --> 00:23:50,100 but let's say for instance for a second 641 00:23:53,870 --> 00:23:52,020 here that go with their notion that it 642 00:23:55,730 --> 00:23:53,880 doesn't really in the same way that they 643 00:23:56,990 --> 00:23:55,740 question whether or not dinosaurs really 644 00:23:58,490 --> 00:23:57,000 existed because they're not mentioned 645 00:24:00,830 --> 00:23:58,500 that kind of thing right even though you 646 00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:00,840 have Leviathan and stuff like that but 647 00:24:06,169 --> 00:24:03,600 to my point the most fundamentalist 648 00:24:09,289 --> 00:24:06,179 groups don't think ETS are possible 649 00:24:10,789 --> 00:24:09,299 because they believe that God made the 650 00:24:12,169 --> 00:24:10,799 Earth the center of the cosmos and all 651 00:24:13,490 --> 00:24:12,179 the real important actions happening 652 00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:13,500 right here and everything else kind of 653 00:24:18,169 --> 00:24:16,320 just serves this Central stage and so 654 00:24:19,850 --> 00:24:18,179 they don't see there being other planets 655 00:24:22,370 --> 00:24:19,860 that are just as much of a Mainstay as 656 00:24:23,630 --> 00:24:22,380 we are in their worldview there are 657 00:24:25,970 --> 00:24:23,640 other people that have more of a 658 00:24:28,130 --> 00:24:25,980 progressive Christian Perspective but 659 00:24:31,070 --> 00:24:28,140 still hold to that basic overall 660 00:24:33,529 --> 00:24:31,080 framework that say okay so now it's not 661 00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:33,539 just humans and animals on the Earth but 662 00:24:39,289 --> 00:24:37,200 it's all living biological creatures in 663 00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:39,299 the physical Universe right so that that 664 00:24:45,230 --> 00:24:42,480 middle tier now extends laterally right 665 00:24:47,149 --> 00:24:45,240 to now include other planets with other 666 00:24:48,770 --> 00:24:47,159 biological organisms other kinds of 667 00:24:51,770 --> 00:24:48,780 animals other kinds of you know maybe 668 00:24:53,930 --> 00:24:51,780 even sophisticated intelligence but they 669 00:24:55,970 --> 00:24:53,940 still fall within that that middle zone 670 00:24:56,930 --> 00:24:55,980 so again even within these religious 671 00:24:59,750 --> 00:24:56,940 circles you have these different 672 00:25:03,529 --> 00:24:59,760 gradations based on belief right so 673 00:25:05,029 --> 00:25:03,539 predetermined dogmatic belief then looks 674 00:25:08,330 --> 00:25:05,039 at the data and makes sense of the data 675 00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:10,730 yeah definitely and that just the 676 00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:13,260 absurdity of that idea uh you know take 677 00:25:17,090 --> 00:25:14,700 you know the Vatican or whatever or 678 00:25:18,950 --> 00:25:17,100 making pronouncements about you know if 679 00:25:20,690 --> 00:25:18,960 uh if we discover these other entities 680 00:25:22,310 --> 00:25:20,700 whatever then they're a part of just 681 00:25:25,850 --> 00:25:22,320 like you said they're part of the the 682 00:25:28,190 --> 00:25:25,860 middle tier uh but don't forget don't 683 00:25:30,409 --> 00:25:28,200 ever forget that the uh the Revelation 684 00:25:32,750 --> 00:25:30,419 the embodiment of everything that that 685 00:25:34,190 --> 00:25:32,760 that the church holds dear and true is 686 00:25:35,810 --> 00:25:34,200 still happening here on this planet 687 00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:35,820 right so 688 00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:38,640 um it's it's it's crafty because it's 689 00:25:41,810 --> 00:25:40,080 it's like yeah you're all part of the 690 00:25:43,610 --> 00:25:41,820 club but just don't don't forget we're 691 00:25:45,649 --> 00:25:43,620 still the most important like the the 692 00:25:47,810 --> 00:25:45,659 revelation of of all that is true 693 00:25:49,789 --> 00:25:47,820 happened here happened two thousand 694 00:25:52,070 --> 00:25:49,799 years ago you know so it's a it's a bit 695 00:25:55,070 --> 00:25:52,080 of a strange way to uh to kind of 696 00:25:56,930 --> 00:25:55,080 contort uh the facts as you find them to 697 00:25:58,190 --> 00:25:56,940 fit into your narrative but but I mean 698 00:26:00,169 --> 00:25:58,200 quite frankly that's what we've always 699 00:26:02,870 --> 00:26:00,179 been doing right so you know we've 700 00:26:04,549 --> 00:26:02,880 touched on on this many times and that 701 00:26:06,769 --> 00:26:04,559 is that uh 702 00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:06,779 we know we cannot help but look at the 703 00:26:10,730 --> 00:26:08,640 world we find ourselves and interpret it 704 00:26:12,350 --> 00:26:10,740 from what we've been handed 705 00:26:14,450 --> 00:26:12,360 um and and we're always doing that like 706 00:26:16,190 --> 00:26:14,460 there's no escaping that 707 00:26:18,110 --> 00:26:16,200 um and so it just so happens that some 708 00:26:20,450 --> 00:26:18,120 of these models have a lot of sticking 709 00:26:22,909 --> 00:26:20,460 power staying power and then be very 710 00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:22,919 difficult to disentangle and to look at 711 00:26:29,149 --> 00:26:26,159 objectively uh if if it's if it's ever 712 00:26:31,789 --> 00:26:29,159 present within the society right 713 00:26:33,470 --> 00:26:31,799 um but you know as as time went by and 714 00:26:35,390 --> 00:26:33,480 and you know that that ET model is 715 00:26:37,490 --> 00:26:35,400 certainly you know and still has a lot 716 00:26:39,230 --> 00:26:37,500 of uh a lot of adherence and is very 717 00:26:41,149 --> 00:26:39,240 compelling and and I think we've even 718 00:26:44,029 --> 00:26:41,159 mentioned several times that we think 719 00:26:45,590 --> 00:26:44,039 it's uh it's it's both and right it 720 00:26:47,210 --> 00:26:45,600 could be that and it's also many other 721 00:26:48,769 --> 00:26:47,220 things so you know keep in mind that 722 00:26:50,450 --> 00:26:48,779 there's a lot of different things at 723 00:26:53,690 --> 00:26:50,460 play here so we're not going to discard 724 00:26:55,850 --> 00:26:53,700 that uh outright entirely but in the 725 00:26:59,570 --> 00:26:55,860 20th century is uh you know we kind of 726 00:27:01,490 --> 00:26:59,580 got past War Two and and in Vietnam uh 727 00:27:04,190 --> 00:27:01,500 the New Age movement was kind of today 728 00:27:06,169 --> 00:27:04,200 taking off and and the ideas there were 729 00:27:07,789 --> 00:27:06,179 really uh you know kind of lighting the 730 00:27:10,669 --> 00:27:07,799 imaginations of the the Youth of the 731 00:27:13,310 --> 00:27:10,679 world and and this sort of love and 732 00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:13,320 light conception of of what these others 733 00:27:18,890 --> 00:27:16,080 uh were when we're about their agendas 734 00:27:20,570 --> 00:27:18,900 you know that really became uh front and 735 00:27:22,730 --> 00:27:20,580 center and we see this embodied pretty 736 00:27:24,769 --> 00:27:22,740 well within what we hear from someone 737 00:27:27,169 --> 00:27:24,779 like Stephen Greer you know like the the 738 00:27:28,850 --> 00:27:27,179 entities are only positive there's no no 739 00:27:31,130 --> 00:27:28,860 negative if it's negative it's human 740 00:27:33,769 --> 00:27:31,140 right so what I think it'd be worth 741 00:27:35,090 --> 00:27:33,779 taking a look at that and and why is 742 00:27:36,590 --> 00:27:35,100 that such a compelling way to look at it 743 00:27:38,810 --> 00:27:36,600 and what what are the faults with that 744 00:27:40,730 --> 00:27:38,820 way of thinking about it 745 00:27:43,010 --> 00:27:40,740 right so I think what's always 746 00:27:45,169 --> 00:27:43,020 interesting to do when we move on to the 747 00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:45,179 next perspective historically is to 748 00:27:48,950 --> 00:27:47,039 place it within its historical context 749 00:27:52,190 --> 00:27:48,960 because these things never arise in a 750 00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:52,200 vacuum right so in the same way that you 751 00:27:57,529 --> 00:27:54,720 know the scientific World arose out of 752 00:28:00,529 --> 00:27:57,539 the Catholic Church world where 753 00:28:02,330 --> 00:28:00,539 Catholicism or you know Christendom was 754 00:28:03,890 --> 00:28:02,340 dominated by a dogmatic religious 755 00:28:05,810 --> 00:28:03,900 perspective 756 00:28:07,669 --> 00:28:05,820 that gave all the power and described 757 00:28:11,090 --> 00:28:07,679 all the power to the church 758 00:28:13,370 --> 00:28:11,100 the goal of scientists and the rise of 759 00:28:15,830 --> 00:28:13,380 science was to say there's an objective 760 00:28:18,350 --> 00:28:15,840 truth that no one owns and anyone can 761 00:28:20,330 --> 00:28:18,360 find it by using these objective tools 762 00:28:22,610 --> 00:28:20,340 of analysis you know in the natural 763 00:28:24,289 --> 00:28:22,620 world so that's how that arose from that 764 00:28:26,210 --> 00:28:24,299 but very much because it was it was a 765 00:28:28,669 --> 00:28:26,220 correction for 766 00:28:31,310 --> 00:28:28,679 um an over pendulum swing an over swing 767 00:28:32,930 --> 00:28:31,320 uh during Christendom 768 00:28:34,610 --> 00:28:32,940 now 769 00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:34,620 when you look at the New Age movement 770 00:28:39,950 --> 00:28:37,679 what we see there is 771 00:28:42,110 --> 00:28:39,960 kind of a swinging back the other way so 772 00:28:44,210 --> 00:28:42,120 you kind of go from a religious 773 00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:44,220 perspective that's quite closed down and 774 00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:46,320 has a lot of Doom and Gloom you could 775 00:28:50,750 --> 00:28:48,720 say and you know fire and brimstone and 776 00:28:52,190 --> 00:28:50,760 you better do the right thing or God's 777 00:28:54,289 --> 00:28:52,200 Gonna spank you kind of thing you don't 778 00:28:56,210 --> 00:28:54,299 want that and your your Eternal Soul 779 00:28:57,950 --> 00:28:56,220 could be on the line so then we move to 780 00:28:59,450 --> 00:28:57,960 the scientific perspective that was oh 781 00:29:02,149 --> 00:28:59,460 there's no such thing as an afterlife 782 00:29:04,070 --> 00:29:02,159 and there are no Spirits those are just 783 00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:04,080 part of our imagination which is just an 784 00:29:08,529 --> 00:29:05,520 epiphenomena 785 00:29:12,289 --> 00:29:08,539 a nephew phenomenon of 786 00:29:13,490 --> 00:29:12,299 biomechanical processes in the body in 787 00:29:15,409 --> 00:29:13,500 other words it's not really real it's 788 00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:15,419 just kind of what you imagine 789 00:29:19,490 --> 00:29:17,520 so then the New Age movement came along 790 00:29:22,010 --> 00:29:19,500 and said no there actually is a 791 00:29:23,630 --> 00:29:22,020 spiritual reality but 792 00:29:25,250 --> 00:29:23,640 we don't want it to be what it was 793 00:29:27,950 --> 00:29:25,260 before in the religious you know 794 00:29:29,990 --> 00:29:27,960 dogmatism we want it to be open-hearted 795 00:29:31,789 --> 00:29:30,000 and love and light and 796 00:29:33,649 --> 00:29:31,799 you're good and gosh thrown at people 797 00:29:35,450 --> 00:29:33,659 like you too you know that that kind of 798 00:29:37,310 --> 00:29:35,460 I think of that skit from Saturday Night 799 00:29:40,190 --> 00:29:37,320 Live back back in the day 800 00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:40,200 so again you see this correction right a 801 00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:43,200 a turn based on what was perceived as an 802 00:29:46,610 --> 00:29:45,360 over correction or an over swing in a 803 00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:46,620 previous iteration so it's always 804 00:29:50,690 --> 00:29:48,480 interesting to look at all these things 805 00:29:52,850 --> 00:29:50,700 within the historical context 806 00:29:55,070 --> 00:29:52,860 but to that point I think one thing we 807 00:29:57,049 --> 00:29:55,080 should do here is point out that you 808 00:29:59,090 --> 00:29:57,059 know we've both talked about integral 809 00:30:01,850 --> 00:29:59,100 Theory and one key aspect there is to 810 00:30:04,190 --> 00:30:01,860 say there's truth in each of these so 811 00:30:06,590 --> 00:30:04,200 one of the ways we can avoid doing these 812 00:30:08,630 --> 00:30:06,600 right turn and left turn you know 90 813 00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:08,640 degree swings away and end up over 814 00:30:13,310 --> 00:30:11,520 correcting is to say okay let's honestly 815 00:30:14,750 --> 00:30:13,320 assess the previous perspective what was 816 00:30:17,269 --> 00:30:14,760 good about it how did it move us forward 817 00:30:19,370 --> 00:30:17,279 and in what ways did it perhaps missed 818 00:30:21,470 --> 00:30:19,380 the mark and we can perhaps correct a 819 00:30:22,370 --> 00:30:21,480 little bit so by doing those sort of 820 00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:22,380 more 821 00:30:30,409 --> 00:30:28,080 those incremental Corrections we tend to 822 00:30:32,090 --> 00:30:30,419 stay moving straight ahead and we 823 00:30:33,529 --> 00:30:32,100 hopefully you know learn what we can 824 00:30:36,230 --> 00:30:33,539 from what we've done before but we don't 825 00:30:39,350 --> 00:30:36,240 reject we transcend and include as we 826 00:30:41,870 --> 00:30:39,360 say in integral circles and so I think 827 00:30:43,370 --> 00:30:41,880 where we're going to land or what sort 828 00:30:46,190 --> 00:30:43,380 of just become part of par for the 829 00:30:48,590 --> 00:30:46,200 course for me is to say I don't reject 830 00:30:50,330 --> 00:30:48,600 the spiritual part I say how is it part 831 00:30:53,450 --> 00:30:50,340 of this right 832 00:30:55,130 --> 00:30:53,460 um I don't reject the um truths that 833 00:30:57,830 --> 00:30:55,140 science has taught us and ways that we 834 00:31:00,049 --> 00:30:57,840 can use objective analysis to make sure 835 00:31:02,450 --> 00:31:00,059 that we're not just you know falling for 836 00:31:03,769 --> 00:31:02,460 our own precognitive biases kind of 837 00:31:05,570 --> 00:31:03,779 thing 838 00:31:07,610 --> 00:31:05,580 um you know it's important to have that 839 00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:07,620 part too so we need to have all of it 840 00:31:11,149 --> 00:31:09,360 bring it all in 841 00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:11,159 but while I would say 842 00:31:14,810 --> 00:31:12,480 um one more piece before I turn it back 843 00:31:17,990 --> 00:31:14,820 to you in terms of kind of the Stephen 844 00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:18,000 Greer kind of perspective on 845 00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:19,679 you know really when it comes down to it 846 00:31:22,909 --> 00:31:21,120 I think if you really really press him 847 00:31:25,010 --> 00:31:22,919 he might admit this but usually what you 848 00:31:27,350 --> 00:31:25,020 hear is if there's any kind of negative 849 00:31:29,330 --> 00:31:27,360 abduction any kind of negative element 850 00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:29,340 to any kind of interaction with whatever 851 00:31:33,409 --> 00:31:31,679 is perceived as the others at all it 852 00:31:34,970 --> 00:31:33,419 actually must be a government psyop in 853 00:31:37,370 --> 00:31:34,980 other words it's just reducible to human 854 00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:37,380 beings and our usual bad behavior 855 00:31:41,590 --> 00:31:39,840 because you know the the love and light 856 00:31:44,090 --> 00:31:41,600 aliens just don't do this kind of thing 857 00:31:46,789 --> 00:31:44,100 extraterrestrials just don't operate 858 00:31:49,610 --> 00:31:46,799 like we humans do and really it's that 859 00:31:51,950 --> 00:31:49,620 perspective again that exists prior to 860 00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:51,960 the data that then changes how he looks 861 00:31:54,909 --> 00:31:53,760 at the data and how he makes sense of 862 00:31:58,730 --> 00:31:54,919 the data 863 00:32:02,029 --> 00:31:58,740 yeah it's it's the same sort of fallacy 864 00:32:05,690 --> 00:32:02,039 of looking at human uh civilization and 865 00:32:07,850 --> 00:32:05,700 going well uh we have uh Advanced human 866 00:32:10,789 --> 00:32:07,860 civilization here and because they're 867 00:32:14,330 --> 00:32:10,799 Advanced technologically they must also 868 00:32:16,430 --> 00:32:14,340 be Advanced morally and then you have uh 869 00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:16,440 you know you have like the Spanish uh 870 00:32:22,010 --> 00:32:18,720 invasion of the West you know over brain 871 00:32:24,289 --> 00:32:22,020 disease and and War to the the peoples 872 00:32:26,570 --> 00:32:24,299 that were here uh so there's not a lot 873 00:32:29,930 --> 00:32:26,580 of enlightened morality there present 874 00:32:32,269 --> 00:32:29,940 even though the the those Empires tend 875 00:32:34,430 --> 00:32:32,279 to think that they had that so you know 876 00:32:37,010 --> 00:32:34,440 it's laying on to be these others the 877 00:32:38,389 --> 00:32:37,020 same kinds of uh wishful thinking right 878 00:32:40,669 --> 00:32:38,399 another thing that we talked about 879 00:32:41,930 --> 00:32:40,679 related to this concept is that there's 880 00:32:48,409 --> 00:32:41,940 no 881 00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:48,419 be quite dangerous for someone who isn't 882 00:32:52,669 --> 00:32:50,880 ready to think about it more broadly 883 00:32:55,070 --> 00:32:52,679 right so 884 00:32:57,350 --> 00:32:55,080 um if if if your conception is that they 885 00:32:59,990 --> 00:32:57,360 must only be love and light then that 886 00:33:01,970 --> 00:33:00,000 there's no negative or downside to it 887 00:33:03,409 --> 00:33:01,980 what you're basically saying is I you 888 00:33:05,510 --> 00:33:03,419 know I refuse to believe that because if 889 00:33:08,169 --> 00:33:05,520 there is a downside I'm basically 890 00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:08,179 looking at my own or our own as a 891 00:33:16,009 --> 00:33:12,720 species our Annihilation uh with no area 892 00:33:19,490 --> 00:33:16,019 for Redemption so so love and light 893 00:33:22,850 --> 00:33:19,500 provides a a a sort of a load star 894 00:33:24,830 --> 00:33:22,860 permanent fixed you know something to be 895 00:33:26,269 --> 00:33:24,840 looking forward to to always tell 896 00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:26,279 yourself well it's not going to be bad 897 00:33:31,370 --> 00:33:29,460 like they're only good right 898 00:33:33,169 --> 00:33:31,380 um and because they don't have anything 899 00:33:35,210 --> 00:33:33,179 outside of something that would be more 900 00:33:36,590 --> 00:33:35,220 complex like more complex would be well 901 00:33:38,930 --> 00:33:36,600 some of them are good some of them are 902 00:33:40,430 --> 00:33:38,940 bad and if if some of them are bad and 903 00:33:42,430 --> 00:33:40,440 some of them may want our Annihilation 904 00:33:44,930 --> 00:33:42,440 or even do cause our annual relation 905 00:33:48,350 --> 00:33:44,940 what is it in the story that happens 906 00:33:50,450 --> 00:33:48,360 after that and for many it the thought 907 00:33:52,549 --> 00:33:50,460 process just stops there there is no 908 00:33:54,350 --> 00:33:52,559 after that it's the United our 909 00:33:56,210 --> 00:33:54,360 Annihilation and it's because they live 910 00:33:59,029 --> 00:33:56,220 in a materialist world like there is 911 00:34:01,130 --> 00:33:59,039 nothing else that that follows right so 912 00:34:03,350 --> 00:34:01,140 I think that um we're going to come back 913 00:34:04,970 --> 00:34:03,360 to that at least when we you know finish 914 00:34:07,250 --> 00:34:04,980 this episode 915 00:34:09,169 --> 00:34:07,260 um but that to me seems to be very a big 916 00:34:12,349 --> 00:34:09,179 part of this right is you it's not just 917 00:34:14,389 --> 00:34:12,359 wishful thinking but you it's it's a 918 00:34:16,190 --> 00:34:14,399 Poverty of thinking about the model like 919 00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:16,200 you you kind of have to go this way 920 00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:17,760 because you don't have anything else to 921 00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:19,200 fall into 922 00:34:25,550 --> 00:34:21,839 right I think that's a great point and I 923 00:34:30,770 --> 00:34:28,070 it puts us in a strange conundrum to 924 00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:30,780 think about more powerful others that 925 00:34:35,089 --> 00:34:32,940 might not be all positive and benevolent 926 00:34:36,829 --> 00:34:35,099 and so we sort of decide we'll do the 927 00:34:38,030 --> 00:34:36,839 end run here and just say we're all 928 00:34:40,669 --> 00:34:38,040 positive that but we don't have to deal 929 00:34:42,169 --> 00:34:40,679 with that you know predicament but I 930 00:34:44,450 --> 00:34:42,179 think another one that comes to mind for 931 00:34:46,430 --> 00:34:44,460 me is is kind of this um 932 00:34:48,530 --> 00:34:46,440 inferiority complex we have about our 933 00:34:49,849 --> 00:34:48,540 own species 934 00:34:52,730 --> 00:34:49,859 um I think that 935 00:34:55,250 --> 00:34:52,740 from my background having some vedantic 936 00:34:57,890 --> 00:34:55,260 and Buddhist background I sort of look 937 00:35:00,650 --> 00:34:57,900 at it more like you know we are just 938 00:35:03,290 --> 00:35:00,660 another iteration of the long stream of 939 00:35:05,150 --> 00:35:03,300 Consciousness and what is true of us is 940 00:35:08,870 --> 00:35:05,160 true of the evolution of Consciousness 941 00:35:11,089 --> 00:35:08,880 across the cosmos and so I don't see 942 00:35:14,569 --> 00:35:11,099 this distinct difference between you 943 00:35:17,150 --> 00:35:14,579 know a priori why are 944 00:35:19,970 --> 00:35:17,160 history on our Evolution morally would 945 00:35:22,130 --> 00:35:19,980 be so different than other species and 946 00:35:23,810 --> 00:35:22,140 in fact I I tend to think if we've gone 947 00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:23,820 through these iterations they likely 948 00:35:27,950 --> 00:35:26,640 have as well and because again when it's 949 00:35:30,650 --> 00:35:27,960 all Consciousness at the end of the day 950 00:35:33,950 --> 00:35:30,660 then we're all different 951 00:35:36,109 --> 00:35:33,960 um advantages Vantage points of the same 952 00:35:37,490 --> 00:35:36,119 fundamental Consciousness which is going 953 00:35:39,349 --> 00:35:37,500 to go through some of the same lessons 954 00:35:42,410 --> 00:35:39,359 just you know by definition that's just 955 00:35:45,230 --> 00:35:42,420 part of the experience of being these 956 00:35:47,569 --> 00:35:45,240 you know temporary illusory individuals 957 00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:47,579 uh is that this is part of the process 958 00:35:51,650 --> 00:35:50,160 you go through is you you kind of become 959 00:35:53,690 --> 00:35:51,660 like a five-year-old taller that wants 960 00:35:55,010 --> 00:35:53,700 the world to revolve around you then you 961 00:35:57,410 --> 00:35:55,020 begin to recognize slowly that there's 962 00:35:59,210 --> 00:35:57,420 others as well and it does everyone you 963 00:36:00,770 --> 00:35:59,220 know it's in everyone's best interest to 964 00:36:02,329 --> 00:36:00,780 honor each other's wishes and try to 965 00:36:04,010 --> 00:36:02,339 come up with something that helps 966 00:36:05,329 --> 00:36:04,020 everyone and eventually you get to a 967 00:36:07,490 --> 00:36:05,339 point where you realize actually I am 968 00:36:08,930 --> 00:36:07,500 everyone and they are me and so what we 969 00:36:09,710 --> 00:36:08,940 want is actually fundamentally the same 970 00:36:11,329 --> 00:36:09,720 thing 971 00:36:13,250 --> 00:36:11,339 but it takes a while to go through that 972 00:36:15,950 --> 00:36:13,260 but what makes sense to me is that all 973 00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:15,960 of these different species across the 974 00:36:21,050 --> 00:36:18,480 cosmos go through that 975 00:36:23,990 --> 00:36:21,060 um but I think by 976 00:36:25,910 --> 00:36:24,000 kind of hating on Humanity being really 977 00:36:28,430 --> 00:36:25,920 really judgmental of our history rather 978 00:36:30,650 --> 00:36:28,440 than looking at it and saying this is in 979 00:36:32,569 --> 00:36:30,660 an experiment in Consciousness which 980 00:36:34,370 --> 00:36:32,579 goes through some not great hiccups but 981 00:36:36,589 --> 00:36:34,380 this is just par for the course the same 982 00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:36,599 way you know a toddler like throws up on 983 00:36:40,190 --> 00:36:38,640 themselves and you know spoils their 984 00:36:41,810 --> 00:36:40,200 diaper and stuff like that and doesn't 985 00:36:43,849 --> 00:36:41,820 really care if it's on the leather of 986 00:36:45,770 --> 00:36:43,859 the Porsche or whatever right I mean 987 00:36:47,990 --> 00:36:45,780 this this is just the way it goes and 988 00:36:51,349 --> 00:36:48,000 rather than trying to judge it and say 989 00:36:52,910 --> 00:36:51,359 this is bad by definition again we 990 00:36:57,230 --> 00:36:52,920 talked a bit about this the last time 991 00:37:00,349 --> 00:36:57,240 when the perspective is is that we are 992 00:37:03,770 --> 00:37:00,359 aspects of God we are fractal 993 00:37:05,329 --> 00:37:03,780 um aspects of the universal mind then we 994 00:37:07,730 --> 00:37:05,339 have all the freedom in the world to 995 00:37:09,710 --> 00:37:07,740 screw up or to grow up and that's part 996 00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:09,720 of the process for all of us 997 00:37:15,470 --> 00:37:12,480 right and and all not just humans but 998 00:37:18,349 --> 00:37:15,480 all entities period right so this 999 00:37:22,430 --> 00:37:18,359 process is not really complete I think 1000 00:37:24,410 --> 00:37:22,440 that that's uh often lost uh in in our 1001 00:37:27,950 --> 00:37:24,420 conceptions right we we tend to think of 1002 00:37:30,530 --> 00:37:27,960 any uh non-human intelligence that is uh 1003 00:37:32,990 --> 00:37:30,540 we're we believe is superior to our own 1004 00:37:34,250 --> 00:37:33,000 as uh basically having reached the top 1005 00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:34,260 of the mountain they're they're at the 1006 00:37:37,609 --> 00:37:35,760 plateau you know they don't have any 1007 00:37:40,250 --> 00:37:37,619 further to go uh they've got all the 1008 00:37:41,930 --> 00:37:40,260 secrets yada yada uh but they're on 1009 00:37:44,270 --> 00:37:41,940 their own journey and and their 1010 00:37:46,250 --> 00:37:44,280 relationship with us is part of that 1011 00:37:48,650 --> 00:37:46,260 Journey they are on 1012 00:37:50,690 --> 00:37:48,660 um so it's a it's it's a kind of a lot 1013 00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:50,700 to wrap your mind around but to me it's 1014 00:37:53,930 --> 00:37:52,079 uh it's quite compelling I know we're 1015 00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:53,940 gonna spend some more time on it uh in a 1016 00:37:59,329 --> 00:37:56,400 few minutes but I want to spend a little 1017 00:38:01,010 --> 00:37:59,339 bit of time here on something that you 1018 00:38:03,109 --> 00:38:01,020 just talked about and that's kind of the 1019 00:38:06,530 --> 00:38:03,119 the Western mind and the way that we've 1020 00:38:09,290 --> 00:38:06,540 atomized uh our world uh the way that we 1021 00:38:11,770 --> 00:38:09,300 have reduced our knowledge and thinking 1022 00:38:14,270 --> 00:38:11,780 into to these sort of discrete 1023 00:38:17,150 --> 00:38:14,280 packets of information you know that 1024 00:38:18,530 --> 00:38:17,160 that knowing is uh in order to know 1025 00:38:20,569 --> 00:38:18,540 something we have to be able to break it 1026 00:38:23,750 --> 00:38:20,579 into its constituent pieces and chunks 1027 00:38:26,810 --> 00:38:23,760 and and that permeates really every 1028 00:38:29,089 --> 00:38:26,820 facet of of our world of our of our way 1029 00:38:31,130 --> 00:38:29,099 of thinking uh in the West 1030 00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:31,140 the permeates our science permeates the 1031 00:38:35,870 --> 00:38:32,640 way that we interact with one another 1032 00:38:39,710 --> 00:38:35,880 our language is atomized uh in in the 1033 00:38:42,410 --> 00:38:39,720 same way and and we confuse 1034 00:38:45,530 --> 00:38:42,420 these things that we have created the 1035 00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:45,540 these symbols and uh and manufactured 1036 00:38:50,810 --> 00:38:47,280 things in our in our environment we've 1037 00:38:53,089 --> 00:38:50,820 confused them for reality itself right 1038 00:38:55,130 --> 00:38:53,099 and so I I want to I know we don't have 1039 00:38:58,130 --> 00:38:55,140 to maybe go too deep on that but I think 1040 00:38:59,810 --> 00:38:58,140 it's important to uh to unpack a little 1041 00:39:01,910 --> 00:38:59,820 bit because it's not the only way to 1042 00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:01,920 think about reality but but it's 1043 00:39:06,890 --> 00:39:04,560 something that we as a default tend to 1044 00:39:08,510 --> 00:39:06,900 fixate on and we can't it's it's hard to 1045 00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:08,520 kind of see around it I find you know it 1046 00:39:13,609 --> 00:39:11,040 just it's all I've ever known right but 1047 00:39:15,349 --> 00:39:13,619 but now that you know you you've uh 1048 00:39:17,750 --> 00:39:15,359 introduced me to some Eastern thinking 1049 00:39:20,030 --> 00:39:17,760 and like it's becoming easier for me to 1050 00:39:22,790 --> 00:39:20,040 think about knowing in in a way that I'm 1051 00:39:24,589 --> 00:39:22,800 not accustomed to an intuitive kind of 1052 00:39:27,530 --> 00:39:24,599 knowing 1053 00:39:29,810 --> 00:39:27,540 right and and I think this completely 1054 00:39:31,990 --> 00:39:29,820 plays into the question of what the UFO 1055 00:39:35,329 --> 00:39:32,000 phenomenon is what it represents because 1056 00:39:37,849 --> 00:39:35,339 what we are trying to fit it within is 1057 00:39:40,430 --> 00:39:37,859 our map right not our reality but our 1058 00:39:42,829 --> 00:39:40,440 map of reality and it's become so 1059 00:39:44,030 --> 00:39:42,839 ubiquitous that we no longer distinguish 1060 00:39:46,930 --> 00:39:44,040 between the two 1061 00:39:50,750 --> 00:39:46,940 so when a four-year-old is being taught 1062 00:39:53,510 --> 00:39:50,760 that thing over there is a thing and you 1063 00:39:56,329 --> 00:39:53,520 call it a bird that thing over there is 1064 00:39:58,550 --> 00:39:56,339 a thing and it's called a cow right 1065 00:40:00,890 --> 00:39:58,560 before then they might have just thought 1066 00:40:02,750 --> 00:40:00,900 this is an interesting field with some 1067 00:40:04,730 --> 00:40:02,760 moving blue and black dots on it right 1068 00:40:06,710 --> 00:40:04,740 but we're saying no you're you're 1069 00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:06,720 thinking about it wrong you have to 1070 00:40:11,510 --> 00:40:08,880 itemize that you have to split these up 1071 00:40:13,310 --> 00:40:11,520 into objects and identify them and this 1072 00:40:16,010 --> 00:40:13,320 is the name you give to them so that the 1073 00:40:18,589 --> 00:40:16,020 process of naming itself is not just a 1074 00:40:20,870 --> 00:40:18,599 process of naming but it's also a 1075 00:40:22,550 --> 00:40:20,880 conceptual framework of division of 1076 00:40:24,410 --> 00:40:22,560 saying these are where the borders exist 1077 00:40:25,849 --> 00:40:24,420 in this reality and you must think about 1078 00:40:28,730 --> 00:40:25,859 reality this way 1079 00:40:30,530 --> 00:40:28,740 and one of the confounding aspects of 1080 00:40:33,349 --> 00:40:30,540 different elements of the UFO phenomenon 1081 00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:33,359 is is they defy those right when they 1082 00:40:36,109 --> 00:40:35,040 can take your Consciousness but leave 1083 00:40:38,690 --> 00:40:36,119 your body 1084 00:40:41,150 --> 00:40:38,700 we go hmm I don't think mom taught me 1085 00:40:43,550 --> 00:40:41,160 about that when I was five right there's 1086 00:40:45,890 --> 00:40:43,560 just me right and so how can there be a 1087 00:40:48,109 --> 00:40:45,900 me that's that on board a craft as a 1088 00:40:50,030 --> 00:40:48,119 Consciousness that's maybe dancing in 1089 00:40:51,950 --> 00:40:50,040 spirit you might say with this other 1090 00:40:54,650 --> 00:40:51,960 entity whose body is also sitting over 1091 00:40:56,510 --> 00:40:54,660 there by the computer console while my 1092 00:40:58,609 --> 00:40:56,520 body's lying on my bed what does this 1093 00:41:01,250 --> 00:40:58,619 mean for this itemized mapping of the 1094 00:41:03,230 --> 00:41:01,260 world right it collapses our Maps but 1095 00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:03,240 what we've forgotten is that what we're 1096 00:41:07,970 --> 00:41:05,520 referring to is a map not reality itself 1097 00:41:10,010 --> 00:41:07,980 and so we think it's absurd we think 1098 00:41:11,750 --> 00:41:10,020 it's maybe even deceptive because it 1099 00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:11,760 doesn't make any sense and we forget 1100 00:41:16,430 --> 00:41:14,160 that we're actually comparing it to is a 1101 00:41:18,410 --> 00:41:16,440 map not reality 1102 00:41:19,310 --> 00:41:18,420 yeah very well said 1103 00:41:22,550 --> 00:41:19,320 um well I know we have a couple more 1104 00:41:24,589 --> 00:41:22,560 models we want to get to before uh we 1105 00:41:25,910 --> 00:41:24,599 kind of turn the corner toward the end 1106 00:41:27,410 --> 00:41:25,920 of the show 1107 00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:27,420 um another one that kind of came onto 1108 00:41:33,650 --> 00:41:30,720 the scene and and here I'm thinking um 1109 00:41:35,630 --> 00:41:33,660 Skinwalker Ranch is a good example of 1110 00:41:37,190 --> 00:41:35,640 this particular model and that's the 1111 00:41:39,890 --> 00:41:37,200 trickster 1112 00:41:41,569 --> 00:41:39,900 um and the we you know you see some of 1113 00:41:43,310 --> 00:41:41,579 this not just with Skinwalker Ranch I 1114 00:41:46,069 --> 00:41:43,320 mean you know Jacques filet has done a 1115 00:41:48,829 --> 00:41:46,079 good job of sharing some anecdotes in 1116 00:41:50,690 --> 00:41:48,839 history about this and uh and John Keel 1117 00:41:52,849 --> 00:41:50,700 of course 1118 00:41:54,410 --> 00:41:52,859 um in the operation Trojan Horse uh you 1119 00:41:58,370 --> 00:41:54,420 know and I mentioned several of these 1120 00:42:01,130 --> 00:41:58,380 you know it's it's this illusory uh kind 1121 00:42:02,930 --> 00:42:01,140 of messing with you uh you know Jim 1122 00:42:04,490 --> 00:42:02,940 semivan's a great proponent of this too 1123 00:42:06,770 --> 00:42:04,500 and if you think about current voices 1124 00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:06,780 that are that are big on this topic you 1125 00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:09,359 know you can't trust it it's uh it's 1126 00:42:13,730 --> 00:42:11,280 it's not got your best interests at 1127 00:42:16,010 --> 00:42:13,740 heart it's it's it basically actively 1128 00:42:18,349 --> 00:42:16,020 disinforming you uh and so you can't 1129 00:42:19,790 --> 00:42:18,359 really make heads or tails of it 1130 00:42:22,130 --> 00:42:19,800 um and I find that the rise of that 1131 00:42:24,230 --> 00:42:22,140 model is interesting not just because 1132 00:42:26,569 --> 00:42:24,240 sure it does fit some of the stories 1133 00:42:28,490 --> 00:42:26,579 that that we hear but it it also happens 1134 00:42:30,410 --> 00:42:28,500 to coincide at a time in our in our 1135 00:42:32,510 --> 00:42:30,420 history where it's difficult for us to 1136 00:42:34,430 --> 00:42:32,520 really make heads or tails of reality in 1137 00:42:37,069 --> 00:42:34,440 terms of you know what what is truth 1138 00:42:39,050 --> 00:42:37,079 with a capital T right and in truth in 1139 00:42:41,089 --> 00:42:39,060 our current time is is very subjective 1140 00:42:43,970 --> 00:42:41,099 uh we live in a post-truth world some 1141 00:42:45,470 --> 00:42:43,980 say so being able to you know put your 1142 00:42:47,329 --> 00:42:45,480 hand on something and say this is real 1143 00:42:49,310 --> 00:42:47,339 this is how this is what it actually is 1144 00:42:51,290 --> 00:42:49,320 we're finding that that very difficult 1145 00:42:53,630 --> 00:42:51,300 to do that we operated a lot of 1146 00:42:55,970 --> 00:42:53,640 different realities we're kind of 1147 00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:55,980 navigating through them or if you're 1148 00:42:59,390 --> 00:42:58,319 heavily invested in social media you 1149 00:43:00,589 --> 00:42:59,400 said you know what I'm not going to 1150 00:43:02,750 --> 00:43:00,599 operate through a lot of them I'm just 1151 00:43:04,849 --> 00:43:02,760 going to encapsulate myself with one of 1152 00:43:06,650 --> 00:43:04,859 them and everything that I consume is 1153 00:43:09,589 --> 00:43:06,660 just going to be a part of that one 1154 00:43:10,970 --> 00:43:09,599 operating model and I refuse to be I 1155 00:43:12,530 --> 00:43:10,980 refuse to let anything that would be 1156 00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:12,540 contradictory to my way of thinking 1157 00:43:18,109 --> 00:43:15,119 permeate that bubble right it's a it's a 1158 00:43:19,970 --> 00:43:18,119 self-defense in a sense so trickster to 1159 00:43:21,890 --> 00:43:19,980 me feels like it's it's hit the scene 1160 00:43:23,690 --> 00:43:21,900 pretty recently although I know there's 1161 00:43:25,490 --> 00:43:23,700 a lot of stories in the history in the 1162 00:43:27,349 --> 00:43:25,500 lore about you know trickster entities 1163 00:43:29,930 --> 00:43:27,359 but what are the ways that you think 1164 00:43:31,550 --> 00:43:29,940 about that model and what feels valid 1165 00:43:34,010 --> 00:43:31,560 about it and and you know what what do 1166 00:43:35,750 --> 00:43:34,020 you think is not so valid 1167 00:43:37,550 --> 00:43:35,760 well I would say first of all I think 1168 00:43:39,650 --> 00:43:37,560 there are different kinds of phenomena 1169 00:43:41,270 --> 00:43:39,660 that represent different kinds of what 1170 00:43:43,609 --> 00:43:41,280 we might call the trickster and again I 1171 00:43:45,770 --> 00:43:43,619 think we we err and assuming it's all 1172 00:43:47,690 --> 00:43:45,780 one thing and grouping that together and 1173 00:43:49,130 --> 00:43:47,700 I think there are times where again not 1174 00:43:51,170 --> 00:43:49,140 so much in Western tradition but an 1175 00:43:53,390 --> 00:43:51,180 Eastern tradition there's definitely the 1176 00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:53,400 sense that sometimes 1177 00:43:57,650 --> 00:43:55,440 something that confounds you is in your 1178 00:43:59,569 --> 00:43:57,660 best interest right in the west we tend 1179 00:44:01,010 --> 00:43:59,579 to go come on either lay it out for me 1180 00:44:02,450 --> 00:44:01,020 or you don't you're either for me or 1181 00:44:04,370 --> 00:44:02,460 against me right and that's kind of the 1182 00:44:05,930 --> 00:44:04,380 thinking whereas that's not so much the 1183 00:44:08,630 --> 00:44:05,940 thinking in the in the East so you have 1184 00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:08,640 something like a Zen koan which is 1185 00:44:12,950 --> 00:44:10,800 designed to stop your current kind of 1186 00:44:14,809 --> 00:44:12,960 thinking so it's deliberately meant to 1187 00:44:17,390 --> 00:44:14,819 be a roadblock it's meant to confound 1188 00:44:19,550 --> 00:44:17,400 your thinking not just your thought but 1189 00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:19,560 the way you think about reality itself 1190 00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:22,560 is being is meant to be challenged 1191 00:44:28,010 --> 00:44:25,440 confronted and we might say well that's 1192 00:44:29,630 --> 00:44:28,020 a trickster there's no fun I don't know 1193 00:44:32,150 --> 00:44:29,640 how to make sense of this it's blowing 1194 00:44:34,309 --> 00:44:32,160 up all my models but that might be the 1195 00:44:37,730 --> 00:44:34,319 the very point because your models are 1196 00:44:40,370 --> 00:44:37,740 incorrect so you think about 1197 00:44:42,170 --> 00:44:40,380 um someone like Carl Jung talked about 1198 00:44:44,450 --> 00:44:42,180 you know the collective unconscious and 1199 00:44:46,130 --> 00:44:44,460 our physical reality what we perceive 1200 00:44:48,890 --> 00:44:46,140 and experiences the physical world that 1201 00:44:50,690 --> 00:44:48,900 we walk around in is actually the other 1202 00:44:52,849 --> 00:44:50,700 side of a coin the physical 1203 00:44:54,650 --> 00:44:52,859 manifestation of actually processes 1204 00:44:57,470 --> 00:44:54,660 going on in the in the collective 1205 00:44:59,690 --> 00:44:57,480 unconscious so in that sense if we 1206 00:45:02,930 --> 00:44:59,700 become too wedded to a certain model for 1207 00:45:05,210 --> 00:45:02,940 instance reductionistic materialism then 1208 00:45:06,950 --> 00:45:05,220 this Collective unconscious will bubble 1209 00:45:09,710 --> 00:45:06,960 to the surface these confounding 1210 00:45:11,150 --> 00:45:09,720 elements to try to self-correct us so 1211 00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:11,160 this is actually a self-correcting 1212 00:45:16,010 --> 00:45:13,680 mechanism but again because we itemize 1213 00:45:18,410 --> 00:45:16,020 and divide the world we say this is 1214 00:45:20,690 --> 00:45:18,420 something else against us you know it's 1215 00:45:22,069 --> 00:45:20,700 US versus them again when it may very 1216 00:45:24,109 --> 00:45:22,079 well be a manifestation of the 1217 00:45:26,510 --> 00:45:24,119 collective unconscious trying to create 1218 00:45:28,730 --> 00:45:26,520 a self-correcting mechanism that's built 1219 00:45:30,109 --> 00:45:28,740 into the system itself 1220 00:45:33,230 --> 00:45:30,119 um one other point I would make too is 1221 00:45:35,870 --> 00:45:33,240 that our friend Daniel Elizondo also 1222 00:45:38,210 --> 00:45:35,880 known as a mega point on Twitter 1223 00:45:40,430 --> 00:45:38,220 he and I recently were discussing on 1224 00:45:43,010 --> 00:45:40,440 social media Ken Wilbur again talking 1225 00:45:45,230 --> 00:45:43,020 about there's these different ways that 1226 00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:45,240 we can think about truth that there's 1227 00:45:48,109 --> 00:45:46,560 always sort of these these four 1228 00:45:51,470 --> 00:45:48,119 different dimensions we need to think 1229 00:45:54,109 --> 00:45:51,480 about truth and it involves both an 1230 00:45:56,450 --> 00:45:54,119 interior and an exterior level both as 1231 00:45:58,910 --> 00:45:56,460 individuals and as a collective and if 1232 00:46:00,950 --> 00:45:58,920 we try to collapse any of those and say 1233 00:46:03,589 --> 00:46:00,960 that only reductionistic materialism is 1234 00:46:05,710 --> 00:46:03,599 real only flat land exists the rest is 1235 00:46:09,910 --> 00:46:05,720 mush then 1236 00:46:12,710 --> 00:46:09,920 that crushing of reality will create 1237 00:46:14,329 --> 00:46:12,720 Shadow and that shadow will manifest and 1238 00:46:16,849 --> 00:46:14,339 things that look a lot like trickster 1239 00:46:19,250 --> 00:46:16,859 phenomena because it's reality itself 1240 00:46:20,809 --> 00:46:19,260 saying you can't do that you crush me 1241 00:46:23,150 --> 00:46:20,819 here I'll come up over here that's just 1242 00:46:24,650 --> 00:46:23,160 the nature of the Beast part of the kind 1243 00:46:27,109 --> 00:46:24,660 of regressive Trend we've been going 1244 00:46:28,609 --> 00:46:27,119 through as a society I think is because 1245 00:46:30,349 --> 00:46:28,619 you know the more Progressive elements 1246 00:46:32,870 --> 00:46:30,359 of our society just tried to crush and 1247 00:46:35,510 --> 00:46:32,880 oppress and shame maybe the less 1248 00:46:37,030 --> 00:46:35,520 developed Parts into non-existence but 1249 00:46:39,470 --> 00:46:37,040 it doesn't work that way you have to 1250 00:46:41,630 --> 00:46:39,480 transform that energy transmute that 1251 00:46:44,630 --> 00:46:41,640 energy if you don't it will rise up 1252 00:46:45,890 --> 00:46:44,640 again as a shadow and look confounding 1253 00:46:48,589 --> 00:46:45,900 and look challenging so I think 1254 00:46:50,870 --> 00:46:48,599 sometimes again this trickster element 1255 00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:50,880 can actually be for us it's actually 1256 00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:52,800 meant to be a self-correcting mechanism 1257 00:46:56,270 --> 00:46:54,480 but again I think there's different 1258 00:46:58,010 --> 00:46:56,280 elements here that we sometimes tend to 1259 00:47:00,349 --> 00:46:58,020 overgroup into one 1260 00:47:04,069 --> 00:47:00,359 I'm so glad you took it there at the 1261 00:47:05,690 --> 00:47:04,079 Redemptive quality of the Absurd uh that 1262 00:47:08,690 --> 00:47:05,700 helps broaden and deepen our 1263 00:47:10,970 --> 00:47:08,700 understanding of what is real we find 1264 00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:10,980 ourselves in environments all the time 1265 00:47:16,370 --> 00:47:13,440 that we have perfectly constructed that 1266 00:47:18,170 --> 00:47:16,380 don't have any margin of for error that 1267 00:47:21,349 --> 00:47:18,180 they have tried to block out any any 1268 00:47:23,809 --> 00:47:21,359 aberration and the Absurd as you said 1269 00:47:26,210 --> 00:47:23,819 you know Finds Its way in and reminds us 1270 00:47:28,670 --> 00:47:26,220 that that we are not the true masters of 1271 00:47:31,490 --> 00:47:28,680 the of reality you know we we are just 1272 00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:31,500 players on this on this scene here and 1273 00:47:35,210 --> 00:47:33,000 so I think that the role of the 1274 00:47:38,329 --> 00:47:35,220 trickster is uh is an educational one 1275 00:47:43,250 --> 00:47:38,339 right it's a it's meant to help us uh 1276 00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:43,260 grow learn gain wisdom uh incorporating 1277 00:47:48,890 --> 00:47:46,800 that Oddity we have to wrestle with 1278 00:47:51,829 --> 00:47:48,900 these deeper truths and meanings that 1279 00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:51,839 that are at play and it confronts the 1280 00:47:56,329 --> 00:47:54,000 the scope the span of what we think we 1281 00:47:58,190 --> 00:47:56,339 know to be true and it humbles us right 1282 00:48:01,550 --> 00:47:58,200 we are humbled in the face 1283 00:48:04,010 --> 00:48:01,560 of of that unknown of that of the power 1284 00:48:06,170 --> 00:48:04,020 of that wildness 1285 00:48:07,910 --> 00:48:06,180 um I think that that's um you know it's 1286 00:48:09,290 --> 00:48:07,920 it's really transformative right at the 1287 00:48:10,849 --> 00:48:09,300 end of the day 1288 00:48:13,010 --> 00:48:10,859 right and again we're back to this 1289 00:48:15,230 --> 00:48:13,020 notion of these arbitrary lines that we 1290 00:48:17,510 --> 00:48:15,240 draw in western civilization so this 1291 00:48:19,250 --> 00:48:17,520 very thing that we say is an other and 1292 00:48:20,930 --> 00:48:19,260 it's a tricky other 1293 00:48:23,690 --> 00:48:20,940 may very well actually be just be 1294 00:48:25,430 --> 00:48:23,700 ourselves a deeper process in our own 1295 00:48:27,530 --> 00:48:25,440 Consciousness on a collective level like 1296 00:48:29,329 --> 00:48:27,540 I've discussed before this analogy of 1297 00:48:31,730 --> 00:48:29,339 you've got the the Mountaintop Peaks 1298 00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:31,740 that all underlyingly join into the 1299 00:48:35,809 --> 00:48:33,119 Bedrock and it's all the same thing 1300 00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:35,819 right it's just illusory 1301 00:48:38,450 --> 00:48:37,200 um perspectives that make us think that 1302 00:48:40,730 --> 00:48:38,460 these are separate really when they 1303 00:48:42,710 --> 00:48:40,740 actually are joined but at that more 1304 00:48:44,089 --> 00:48:42,720 base level of the Bedrock we're not we 1305 00:48:46,670 --> 00:48:44,099 don't have so much conscious awareness 1306 00:48:48,589 --> 00:48:46,680 there we actually have to uh you know 1307 00:48:50,569 --> 00:48:48,599 practice to begin to bring conscious 1308 00:48:52,010 --> 00:48:50,579 awareness to those deep levels but 1309 00:48:54,890 --> 00:48:52,020 because it arises there even though it's 1310 00:48:56,809 --> 00:48:54,900 actually ironically coming from us we 1311 00:48:59,630 --> 00:48:56,819 don't recognize it as us so then we say 1312 00:49:01,790 --> 00:48:59,640 it's other and it must be negative uh 1313 00:49:02,870 --> 00:49:01,800 when you know this is kind of what I'm 1314 00:49:03,950 --> 00:49:02,880 getting at is that even when you 1315 00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:03,960 mentioned before 1316 00:49:09,410 --> 00:49:05,760 we still think the Extraterrestrial 1317 00:49:11,390 --> 00:49:09,420 piece is in here it certainly is for me 1318 00:49:13,849 --> 00:49:11,400 it's about transcending and including 1319 00:49:16,490 --> 00:49:13,859 again so it's it's definitely the case 1320 00:49:18,410 --> 00:49:16,500 that beings who at some point 1321 00:49:20,690 --> 00:49:18,420 had origins in different parts of what 1322 00:49:22,490 --> 00:49:20,700 we perceive as a physical universe is 1323 00:49:24,890 --> 00:49:22,500 certainly part of the picture 1324 00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:24,900 the reason why it's not doesn't go far 1325 00:49:29,210 --> 00:49:26,880 enough though is that it's still based 1326 00:49:32,690 --> 00:49:29,220 on a reductionistic materialistic model 1327 00:49:34,910 --> 00:49:32,700 of the reality of a physicalist model of 1328 00:49:37,010 --> 00:49:34,920 a universe that's physical and made of 1329 00:49:39,670 --> 00:49:37,020 stuff matter and that everything to do 1330 00:49:44,030 --> 00:49:39,680 with Consciousness is again an Epi 1331 00:49:46,609 --> 00:49:44,040 phenomenon of that underlying stuff 1332 00:49:49,370 --> 00:49:46,619 that I think is just false it's just not 1333 00:49:52,069 --> 00:49:49,380 true so in that sense they're not really 1334 00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:52,079 extraterrestrial when we say it's just 1335 00:49:57,410 --> 00:49:54,480 that but they certainly have that peace 1336 00:49:59,390 --> 00:49:57,420 and so it's not so much about it yes or 1337 00:50:00,890 --> 00:49:59,400 no it's more about it's both and it's 1338 00:50:03,170 --> 00:50:00,900 that thing and something much more 1339 00:50:05,930 --> 00:50:03,180 because the very underlying model is 1340 00:50:07,550 --> 00:50:05,940 what needs to evolve here 1341 00:50:08,690 --> 00:50:07,560 there's one more model that I wanted to 1342 00:50:11,270 --> 00:50:08,700 touch on 1343 00:50:13,309 --> 00:50:11,280 that I think has come into popular 1344 00:50:17,510 --> 00:50:13,319 parlance lately and that is the 1345 00:50:19,490 --> 00:50:17,520 simulation model and um you know we 1346 00:50:22,849 --> 00:50:19,500 we've seen this kind of rise in the late 1347 00:50:25,309 --> 00:50:22,859 20th early 21st century uh popularized 1348 00:50:26,990 --> 00:50:25,319 and things like the Matrix 1349 00:50:28,970 --> 00:50:27,000 um where is one Burke in his book 1350 00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:28,980 simulation hypothesis isn't quite 1351 00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:30,480 popular here 1352 00:50:34,849 --> 00:50:32,880 um and and you know it's compelling and 1353 00:50:37,550 --> 00:50:34,859 it has a lot of uh you know explanatory 1354 00:50:41,150 --> 00:50:37,560 power because as we've seen our own 1355 00:50:43,790 --> 00:50:41,160 ability to simulate reality uh increase 1356 00:50:46,069 --> 00:50:43,800 through our compute power and whatnot uh 1357 00:50:48,650 --> 00:50:46,079 it's not hard for us to postulate just 1358 00:50:51,349 --> 00:50:48,660 taking that thread forward and you can 1359 00:50:52,430 --> 00:50:51,359 think of Elon Musk talking about this or 1360 00:50:54,650 --> 00:50:52,440 uh 1361 00:50:56,390 --> 00:50:54,660 Nick Bostrom I think 1362 00:50:58,190 --> 00:50:56,400 um you know so taking that threat 1363 00:51:01,190 --> 00:50:58,200 forward if we if we can do this we can 1364 00:51:02,630 --> 00:51:01,200 render this world uh in this way now and 1365 00:51:04,849 --> 00:51:02,640 we're continuing to make it better then 1366 00:51:05,809 --> 00:51:04,859 surely at some point we'll just you know 1367 00:51:07,970 --> 00:51:05,819 render it to where it's 1368 00:51:10,370 --> 00:51:07,980 indistinguishable from reality as we 1369 00:51:12,650 --> 00:51:10,380 know it and we'll we'll create these 1370 00:51:14,450 --> 00:51:12,660 simulations and we'll be the masters of 1371 00:51:16,010 --> 00:51:14,460 these simulations and and then we may be 1372 00:51:18,109 --> 00:51:16,020 simulation in a simulation ourselves 1373 00:51:20,089 --> 00:51:18,119 maybe simulations all the way up and all 1374 00:51:21,950 --> 00:51:20,099 the way down so I know we've got a lot 1375 00:51:24,109 --> 00:51:21,960 to say on that because there are aspects 1376 00:51:28,309 --> 00:51:24,119 of our thinking and you're thinking that 1377 00:51:30,530 --> 00:51:28,319 that do uh use this conception to a 1378 00:51:32,569 --> 00:51:30,540 certain degree but but it's very 1379 00:51:35,690 --> 00:51:32,579 materialist in its way of looking at 1380 00:51:38,930 --> 00:51:35,700 things though I would say 1381 00:51:43,910 --> 00:51:41,990 it's strange how we continually make 1382 00:51:46,370 --> 00:51:43,920 this mistake of whatever our most 1383 00:51:49,910 --> 00:51:46,380 Cutting Edge Notions of what's coming 1384 00:51:52,430 --> 00:51:49,920 next are we tend to go aha so that's 1385 00:51:55,010 --> 00:51:52,440 what the UFO phenomenon is you know we 1386 00:51:57,290 --> 00:51:55,020 talked about in the early to mid part of 1387 00:51:59,450 --> 00:51:57,300 the 20th century you know outer space 1388 00:52:01,370 --> 00:51:59,460 was the big thing right I think about 1389 00:52:04,309 --> 00:52:01,380 War of the Worlds 1390 00:52:06,589 --> 00:52:04,319 um radio play things like that and so 1391 00:52:09,770 --> 00:52:06,599 that became what we projected onto our 1392 00:52:11,690 --> 00:52:09,780 notion of others now we have you know 1393 00:52:14,210 --> 00:52:11,700 virtual realities and and computing 1394 00:52:16,670 --> 00:52:14,220 power that allows us to create virtual 1395 00:52:19,910 --> 00:52:16,680 escapes that seem very very real and 1396 00:52:21,890 --> 00:52:19,920 based on the exponential explosion of 1397 00:52:23,569 --> 00:52:21,900 you know computing power it's not hard 1398 00:52:25,430 --> 00:52:23,579 to imagine that pretty soon we'll have 1399 00:52:26,990 --> 00:52:25,440 something like the hollow deck on Star 1400 00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:27,000 Trek where it's basically 1401 00:52:31,069 --> 00:52:29,520 indistinguishable from reality 1402 00:52:33,589 --> 00:52:31,079 um it's amazing how close it's already 1403 00:52:36,470 --> 00:52:33,599 getting so you scale that out you know 1404 00:52:37,970 --> 00:52:36,480 10 20 50 years and it's pretty much 1405 00:52:40,010 --> 00:52:37,980 guaranteed we'll get there as long as we 1406 00:52:41,930 --> 00:52:40,020 don't blow ourselves up or get wiped out 1407 00:52:44,270 --> 00:52:41,940 by an asteroid or something 1408 00:52:47,089 --> 00:52:44,280 so 1409 00:52:48,410 --> 00:52:47,099 I just think it's ironic and and kind of 1410 00:52:50,450 --> 00:52:48,420 humorous when I see people doing this 1411 00:52:53,329 --> 00:52:50,460 like even accredited scientists that are 1412 00:52:54,890 --> 00:52:53,339 well known will say things like oh so 1413 00:52:58,069 --> 00:52:54,900 some of these craft are clearly just 1414 00:53:00,910 --> 00:52:58,079 drones but from Alpha Centauri right so 1415 00:53:03,890 --> 00:53:00,920 they sort of like take uh the the 1416 00:53:06,290 --> 00:53:03,900 Extraterrestrial model and they you know 1417 00:53:08,930 --> 00:53:06,300 join it with our Cutting Edge technology 1418 00:53:10,609 --> 00:53:08,940 where now we've got these unmanned you 1419 00:53:12,650 --> 00:53:10,619 know craft flying around the planet and 1420 00:53:14,150 --> 00:53:12,660 that's exciting and Cutting Edge and so 1421 00:53:15,650 --> 00:53:14,160 we go oh put those together that's what 1422 00:53:18,170 --> 00:53:15,660 these must be 1423 00:53:20,210 --> 00:53:18,180 but my thinking is based on the 1424 00:53:22,250 --> 00:53:20,220 different you know scales of the cosmos 1425 00:53:24,230 --> 00:53:22,260 in terms of how long some of these other 1426 00:53:26,450 --> 00:53:24,240 civilizations have likely been around in 1427 00:53:28,609 --> 00:53:26,460 comparison to US what are the chances 1428 00:53:30,470 --> 00:53:28,619 that they just happen to be you know 1429 00:53:32,630 --> 00:53:30,480 coming here with technology that's like 1430 00:53:34,730 --> 00:53:32,640 25 years from what we're at now or maybe 1431 00:53:36,290 --> 00:53:34,740 even 10 years I mean it's kind of 1432 00:53:38,390 --> 00:53:36,300 preposterous when you think about it and 1433 00:53:39,829 --> 00:53:38,400 this this speaks exactly to what we're 1434 00:53:42,650 --> 00:53:39,839 trying to get to in this episode which 1435 00:53:44,510 --> 00:53:42,660 is that the models we come up with the 1436 00:53:46,130 --> 00:53:44,520 explanations we come up with the way we 1437 00:53:48,530 --> 00:53:46,140 make sense of the data parse out the 1438 00:53:50,450 --> 00:53:48,540 data is always a combination of the data 1439 00:53:52,190 --> 00:53:50,460 itself and what we bring to the table 1440 00:53:55,130 --> 00:53:52,200 the possibilities that we even put on 1441 00:53:58,069 --> 00:53:55,140 the table and I think examples like that 1442 00:53:59,230 --> 00:53:58,079 show just how short-sighted we sometimes 1443 00:54:01,730 --> 00:53:59,240 are 1444 00:54:03,770 --> 00:54:01,740 yeah I mean it and it's not to say that 1445 00:54:06,650 --> 00:54:03,780 look hey we may create some simulations 1446 00:54:09,710 --> 00:54:06,660 uh when we when we already do right just 1447 00:54:11,150 --> 00:54:09,720 not with the Fidelity that uh we would 1448 00:54:13,809 --> 00:54:11,160 look to and say yeah that that's 1449 00:54:16,849 --> 00:54:13,819 indistinguishable from my awaking State 1450 00:54:19,130 --> 00:54:16,859 uh but we're not far off and and that's 1451 00:54:22,130 --> 00:54:19,140 not to say that we won't create them uh 1452 00:54:24,950 --> 00:54:22,140 or they don't exist somewhere right 1453 00:54:26,990 --> 00:54:24,960 um so again it can be just like with the 1454 00:54:29,690 --> 00:54:27,000 ete hypothesis it can be part of the 1455 00:54:31,790 --> 00:54:29,700 model but not the model itself right and 1456 00:54:34,490 --> 00:54:31,800 I think that's you know the benefit here 1457 00:54:37,190 --> 00:54:34,500 that we have is that and I know that we 1458 00:54:38,150 --> 00:54:37,200 could tend to look at the data set of 1459 00:54:39,829 --> 00:54:38,160 all the different things that have 1460 00:54:41,270 --> 00:54:39,839 happened and go man this is confusing 1461 00:54:43,069 --> 00:54:41,280 there's just so much different stuff 1462 00:54:44,930 --> 00:54:43,079 going on here and it's hard to make 1463 00:54:46,670 --> 00:54:44,940 heads or tails of it uh there's some 1464 00:54:49,130 --> 00:54:46,680 contradictory data points here and there 1465 00:54:51,049 --> 00:54:49,140 so therefore you know I don't know what 1466 00:54:52,790 --> 00:54:51,059 this is It's just uh you know it's it's 1467 00:54:54,230 --> 00:54:52,800 just I'm gonna write it all off and we 1468 00:54:56,690 --> 00:54:54,240 get really frustrated by that but I 1469 00:54:59,329 --> 00:54:56,700 think instead by looking at all the data 1470 00:55:01,370 --> 00:54:59,339 and saying you know what uh how do I 1471 00:55:03,890 --> 00:55:01,380 how do I synthesize this you know how do 1472 00:55:07,849 --> 00:55:03,900 I integrate these different experiences 1473 00:55:10,430 --> 00:55:07,859 and and anecdotes uh into a model that 1474 00:55:13,069 --> 00:55:10,440 would have explanatory power for all of 1475 00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:13,079 it right and can that be done how would 1476 00:55:16,970 --> 00:55:15,119 that be done and and that that's what 1477 00:55:19,849 --> 00:55:16,980 you and I have been trying to do and 1478 00:55:21,650 --> 00:55:19,859 most recently on our last episode I 1479 00:55:24,349 --> 00:55:21,660 think trying to lay the groundwork for 1480 00:55:25,910 --> 00:55:24,359 uh the Consciousness first model and why 1481 00:55:28,069 --> 00:55:25,920 that's so important 1482 00:55:29,690 --> 00:55:28,079 um because you know as you do scale that 1483 00:55:33,230 --> 00:55:29,700 model up 1484 00:55:35,210 --> 00:55:33,240 and and then overlay it or intersect it 1485 00:55:37,210 --> 00:55:35,220 with the various different phenomena 1486 00:55:40,730 --> 00:55:37,220 that we have that we have heard of and 1487 00:55:42,589 --> 00:55:40,740 encountered uh it begins to make a lot 1488 00:55:44,870 --> 00:55:42,599 of sense it begins to you can you can 1489 00:55:47,809 --> 00:55:44,880 see how it works together and it's 1490 00:55:50,150 --> 00:55:47,819 complex it's complementary it's not uh 1491 00:55:52,730 --> 00:55:50,160 you know so sort of we have a competing 1492 00:55:55,190 --> 00:55:52,740 or antagonistic issues here that one one 1493 00:55:57,049 --> 00:55:55,200 piece of it doesn't fit the other it all 1494 00:56:00,230 --> 00:55:57,059 does work together and I think it'd be 1495 00:56:01,609 --> 00:56:00,240 worthwhile just kind of maybe traveling 1496 00:56:03,589 --> 00:56:01,619 back through some of these models and 1497 00:56:06,530 --> 00:56:03,599 and saying all right well that that 1498 00:56:09,290 --> 00:56:06,540 wasn't so great but but what is uh what 1499 00:56:11,329 --> 00:56:09,300 is your model say about what you know 1500 00:56:13,730 --> 00:56:11,339 the demons and angels model like what 1501 00:56:15,829 --> 00:56:13,740 how would it incorporate aspects of that 1502 00:56:17,390 --> 00:56:15,839 way of thinking in into the larger 1503 00:56:19,430 --> 00:56:17,400 picture have what work with the others 1504 00:56:21,650 --> 00:56:19,440 as well 1505 00:56:22,370 --> 00:56:21,660 right and I think you're you're helping 1506 00:56:26,210 --> 00:56:22,380 me 1507 00:56:26,930 --> 00:56:26,220 think would be helpful to point out to 1508 00:56:28,910 --> 00:56:26,940 people 1509 00:56:31,549 --> 00:56:28,920 and that is that it may end up looking 1510 00:56:32,990 --> 00:56:31,559 like in this Consciousness first model 1511 00:56:34,309 --> 00:56:33,000 this you know Consciousness being 1512 00:56:37,430 --> 00:56:34,319 primary model 1513 00:56:38,990 --> 00:56:37,440 that this period of time that we're in 1514 00:56:41,510 --> 00:56:39,000 right now that we've been in for a few 1515 00:56:44,089 --> 00:56:41,520 centuries which again is just a half of 1516 00:56:45,530 --> 00:56:44,099 a blink of an eye and the the history of 1517 00:56:47,809 --> 00:56:45,540 our species let alone the history of the 1518 00:56:50,089 --> 00:56:47,819 cosmos 1519 00:56:54,349 --> 00:56:50,099 that it's gesturing this period that 1520 00:56:56,569 --> 00:56:54,359 we're in a framework where we see 1521 00:56:59,329 --> 00:56:56,579 the manipulation of the world in terms 1522 00:57:01,670 --> 00:56:59,339 of technology so not only do we reduce 1523 00:57:03,650 --> 00:57:01,680 everything to a physical world and then 1524 00:57:05,390 --> 00:57:03,660 try to say things like our very 1525 00:57:07,010 --> 00:57:05,400 conscious awareness is actually just a 1526 00:57:09,230 --> 00:57:07,020 product of that which again as we said 1527 00:57:10,549 --> 00:57:09,240 last time not only is that unproven but 1528 00:57:12,710 --> 00:57:10,559 it's really untestable because you can't 1529 00:57:15,530 --> 00:57:12,720 untangle your conscious experience from 1530 00:57:17,690 --> 00:57:15,540 the environment you're in but what I'm 1531 00:57:18,770 --> 00:57:17,700 saying is eventually you get to the 1532 00:57:21,230 --> 00:57:18,780 point where 1533 00:57:23,450 --> 00:57:21,240 because it's all Consciousness as your 1534 00:57:25,430 --> 00:57:23,460 Consciousness develops eventually you 1535 00:57:27,109 --> 00:57:25,440 can impact what you perceive as the 1536 00:57:28,970 --> 00:57:27,119 physical world which again is really 1537 00:57:31,549 --> 00:57:28,980 just a Dreamscape around you so in the 1538 00:57:34,250 --> 00:57:31,559 same way that you know an Adept Lucid 1539 00:57:36,650 --> 00:57:34,260 dreamer can control their dream the same 1540 00:57:38,870 --> 00:57:36,660 way the more our Consciousness develops 1541 00:57:40,549 --> 00:57:38,880 the more we're able to impact the 1542 00:57:43,010 --> 00:57:40,559 Dreamscape all around us which is what 1543 00:57:45,589 --> 00:57:43,020 we call the physical world in this 1544 00:57:47,870 --> 00:57:45,599 current model that is you know the 1545 00:57:50,569 --> 00:57:47,880 Mainstay right now with physicalism 1546 00:57:52,490 --> 00:57:50,579 so the notion there is that these others 1547 00:57:54,589 --> 00:57:52,500 you know when we talk about them using 1548 00:57:56,750 --> 00:57:54,599 their Consciousness to to fly the craft 1549 00:57:59,030 --> 00:57:56,760 here and some of the most evolved ones 1550 00:58:00,950 --> 00:57:59,040 don't even need craft they just think it 1551 00:58:02,150 --> 00:58:00,960 and they're here then they think it and 1552 00:58:03,829 --> 00:58:02,160 they're back on Alpha Centauri or 1553 00:58:05,630 --> 00:58:03,839 whatever I mean this is this is the 1554 00:58:07,730 --> 00:58:05,640 nature of the Dreamscape the rules 1555 00:58:09,829 --> 00:58:07,740 change based on your level of 1556 00:58:11,809 --> 00:58:09,839 Consciousness and so even in you know 1557 00:58:15,049 --> 00:58:11,819 again Buddhist and badantic traditions 1558 00:58:17,809 --> 00:58:15,059 you have you know stories of yogis who 1559 00:58:20,690 --> 00:58:17,819 were able to levitate and in our again 1560 00:58:22,790 --> 00:58:20,700 our flatland model Western Civilization 1561 00:58:23,930 --> 00:58:22,800 we say ah those silly people they're 1562 00:58:25,190 --> 00:58:23,940 magical thinking they don't know what 1563 00:58:27,530 --> 00:58:25,200 they're talking about 1564 00:58:29,150 --> 00:58:27,540 but perhaps that's part of the part of 1565 00:58:31,069 --> 00:58:29,160 the deal that because they really were 1566 00:58:32,809 --> 00:58:31,079 focusing so much on Consciousness and a 1567 00:58:34,309 --> 00:58:32,819 deep development there it's very 1568 00:58:36,530 --> 00:58:34,319 possible that they could have developed 1569 00:58:38,990 --> 00:58:36,540 those skills and even if they didn't 1570 00:58:41,630 --> 00:58:39,000 then it's certainly the case that we can 1571 00:58:43,309 --> 00:58:41,640 we will and what we see evidenced 1572 00:58:45,530 --> 00:58:43,319 already is that these others have 1573 00:58:47,450 --> 00:58:45,540 already arrived at those levels again 1574 00:58:50,030 --> 00:58:47,460 like I said a couple times ago 1575 00:58:51,589 --> 00:58:50,040 they want to come into your house they 1576 00:58:52,910 --> 00:58:51,599 don't need to open the door open the 1577 00:58:54,770 --> 00:58:52,920 window they don't even need to go 1578 00:58:57,530 --> 00:58:54,780 through the wall they just make the wall 1579 00:58:58,910 --> 00:58:57,540 not there and again it's it's a thought 1580 00:59:00,710 --> 00:58:58,920 form of that point that's how they're 1581 00:59:02,150 --> 00:59:00,720 interacting with reality because for 1582 00:59:04,789 --> 00:59:02,160 them it's a Dreamscape that they can 1583 00:59:08,210 --> 00:59:04,799 manipulate in real time 1584 00:59:10,730 --> 00:59:08,220 and and in that Dreamscape uh I mean 1585 00:59:12,530 --> 00:59:10,740 just just to put an extra point on I 1586 00:59:15,589 --> 00:59:12,540 mean we're we're in it we're there we're 1587 00:59:18,950 --> 00:59:15,599 always in it we inhabit it right so uh 1588 00:59:20,990 --> 00:59:18,960 the the conceptions that we have about 1589 00:59:23,470 --> 00:59:21,000 how it functions 1590 00:59:26,510 --> 00:59:23,480 color characterize Define 1591 00:59:29,450 --> 00:59:26,520 the things that happen within it right 1592 00:59:31,730 --> 00:59:29,460 it uh and so when when when this 1593 00:59:35,510 --> 00:59:31,740 phenomena occurs and intersects with 1594 00:59:39,049 --> 00:59:35,520 with those conceptions it it it it gets 1595 00:59:41,270 --> 00:59:39,059 uh entwined with those conceptions right 1596 00:59:43,849 --> 00:59:41,280 it gets it gets sort of think of it as 1597 00:59:45,650 --> 00:59:43,859 like it puts on a cloak that is made of 1598 00:59:47,510 --> 00:59:45,660 the fibers of the world that that you 1599 00:59:50,930 --> 00:59:47,520 understand you know how fibers are made 1600 00:59:52,849 --> 00:59:50,940 right and so it's it it it it traffics 1601 00:59:55,270 --> 00:59:52,859 in that world and it takes on an 1602 00:59:57,829 --> 00:59:55,280 appearance of things that that 1603 00:59:59,870 --> 00:59:57,839 that that fill and populate that 1604 01:00:01,370 --> 00:59:59,880 understanding right so that's why we can 1605 01:00:02,390 --> 01:00:01,380 look at these different models over and 1606 01:00:04,670 --> 01:00:02,400 we can you know the ones that we've 1607 01:00:07,010 --> 01:00:04,680 explored on this episode and we can see 1608 01:00:09,470 --> 01:00:07,020 why you know the phenomenon was so 1609 01:00:11,930 --> 01:00:09,480 compelling and manifesting in in those 1610 01:00:13,849 --> 01:00:11,940 different ways because that was the 1611 01:00:16,730 --> 01:00:13,859 level of Consciousness the awareness 1612 01:00:19,910 --> 01:00:16,740 that that Society had at that time and 1613 01:00:23,210 --> 01:00:19,920 it and it added late on to the these uh 1614 01:00:25,370 --> 01:00:23,220 experiences those conceptions uh in in 1615 01:00:27,710 --> 01:00:25,380 how it tried to explain what it is that 1616 01:00:29,809 --> 01:00:27,720 they they were but but the reality what 1617 01:00:32,630 --> 01:00:29,819 they actually are is far deeper than 1618 01:00:34,190 --> 01:00:32,640 that and it's it's something that uh you 1619 01:00:36,289 --> 01:00:34,200 know we are only just beginning to 1620 01:00:38,210 --> 01:00:36,299 really fully grasp 1621 01:00:39,170 --> 01:00:38,220 um but you know just as we took kind of 1622 01:00:40,730 --> 01:00:39,180 as you said in the beginning of the 1623 01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:40,740 episode we kind of took the magnifying 1624 01:00:45,470 --> 01:00:43,440 glass of some of these models 1625 01:00:48,829 --> 01:00:45,480 um I mean what would be 1626 01:00:50,990 --> 01:00:48,839 uh the equivalent kind of analysis or 1627 01:00:53,210 --> 01:00:51,000 magnifying glass to the model of 1628 01:00:56,089 --> 01:00:53,220 Consciousness first and uh and 1629 01:00:58,309 --> 01:00:56,099 non-duality and a you know it I know 1630 01:01:00,230 --> 01:00:58,319 it's very compelling for for us but you 1631 01:01:02,870 --> 01:01:00,240 know what what are the reasons why maybe 1632 01:01:04,609 --> 01:01:02,880 it isn't a great model or why or maybe 1633 01:01:06,410 --> 01:01:04,619 maybe there aren't any good reasons 1634 01:01:08,390 --> 01:01:06,420 maybe it's a It's Perfectly suitable in 1635 01:01:10,910 --> 01:01:08,400 every way but how do you think about 1636 01:01:12,109 --> 01:01:10,920 that when you I guess are honest or try 1637 01:01:14,270 --> 01:01:12,119 to critique it from from your 1638 01:01:16,849 --> 01:01:14,280 perspective 1639 01:01:19,190 --> 01:01:16,859 right and I definitely think we need to 1640 01:01:21,950 --> 01:01:19,200 um I think that sometimes as I've said 1641 01:01:23,870 --> 01:01:21,960 before people will ask me how I arrived 1642 01:01:26,150 --> 01:01:23,880 where I have where I have tentatively 1643 01:01:27,829 --> 01:01:26,160 arrived and it's difficult to just sort 1644 01:01:29,870 --> 01:01:27,839 of give them a 10 point list and say you 1645 01:01:31,069 --> 01:01:29,880 know memorize these 10 it'll make sense 1646 01:01:33,430 --> 01:01:31,079 to you the same way I don't think it 1647 01:01:35,690 --> 01:01:33,440 quite works that way it's in many ways 1648 01:01:38,390 --> 01:01:35,700 Decades of 1649 01:01:41,270 --> 01:01:38,400 interacting with reality considering 1650 01:01:43,609 --> 01:01:41,280 different models of reality thinking 1651 01:01:45,890 --> 01:01:43,619 about the way the transformation happens 1652 01:01:47,270 --> 01:01:45,900 being aware of you know distinctions 1653 01:01:49,370 --> 01:01:47,280 between like you know we were talking 1654 01:01:51,289 --> 01:01:49,380 before we went on the air how in many 1655 01:01:52,789 --> 01:01:51,299 ways Eastern Traditions have a 1656 01:01:55,370 --> 01:01:52,799 fundamentally different way of thinking 1657 01:01:58,309 --> 01:01:55,380 about reality and our relationship with 1658 01:02:00,109 --> 01:01:58,319 it than the west and so sometimes you 1659 01:02:02,569 --> 01:02:00,119 know Western Scholars would go to the 1660 01:02:04,370 --> 01:02:02,579 East and say let's duel it out in a 1661 01:02:07,370 --> 01:02:04,380 debate you know your conceptions against 1662 01:02:09,230 --> 01:02:07,380 mine and that didn't even make any sense 1663 01:02:11,150 --> 01:02:09,240 in in those circles because that's just 1664 01:02:15,109 --> 01:02:11,160 not the way they think about reality 1665 01:02:17,510 --> 01:02:15,119 I've heard about some 1666 01:02:20,750 --> 01:02:17,520 you know lost tribes that were contacted 1667 01:02:22,789 --> 01:02:20,760 in the Amazon that seemed to function 1668 01:02:25,730 --> 01:02:22,799 almost like a high of mind like they 1669 01:02:27,230 --> 01:02:25,740 they didn't speak much they seem to have 1670 01:02:28,849 --> 01:02:27,240 almost like a telepathic understanding 1671 01:02:31,069 --> 01:02:28,859 amongst themselves 1672 01:02:32,690 --> 01:02:31,079 and in some ways 1673 01:02:34,789 --> 01:02:32,700 you know mirrored what we see with some 1674 01:02:36,829 --> 01:02:34,799 of the others and I think that's just an 1675 01:02:39,289 --> 01:02:36,839 example that 1676 01:02:42,170 --> 01:02:39,299 if you have a certain way of perceiving 1677 01:02:43,670 --> 01:02:42,180 reality and then you act on that for 1678 01:02:45,530 --> 01:02:43,680 generations and generations and 1679 01:02:48,349 --> 01:02:45,540 generations you end up with a 1680 01:02:50,030 --> 01:02:48,359 fundamentally different way of being and 1681 01:02:51,829 --> 01:02:50,040 seeing reality and even understanding 1682 01:02:53,270 --> 01:02:51,839 individual versus Collective and things 1683 01:02:56,210 --> 01:02:53,280 like that 1684 01:02:58,670 --> 01:02:56,220 so all these factors come in here and 1685 01:03:00,730 --> 01:02:58,680 like I said earlier I try to take a 1686 01:03:03,530 --> 01:03:00,740 Transcendent include rather than 1687 01:03:05,210 --> 01:03:03,540 supersede and reject right 1688 01:03:07,549 --> 01:03:05,220 um kind of perspective on these things 1689 01:03:10,490 --> 01:03:07,559 so I look at all of the different things 1690 01:03:13,130 --> 01:03:10,500 we talked about angels demons sort of ET 1691 01:03:14,390 --> 01:03:13,140 scientific Expeditions 1692 01:03:17,329 --> 01:03:14,400 um you know 1693 01:03:19,190 --> 01:03:17,339 things like simulation hypothesis I take 1694 01:03:21,289 --> 01:03:19,200 all of that and say how can that be part 1695 01:03:24,589 --> 01:03:21,299 of this interdimensionality is another 1696 01:03:27,890 --> 01:03:24,599 one and and how can we 1697 01:03:30,530 --> 01:03:27,900 take all of this information and and see 1698 01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:30,540 how we can parse out the different data 1699 01:03:35,450 --> 01:03:33,119 streams and see different patterns 1700 01:03:37,670 --> 01:03:35,460 patterns within the totality and I think 1701 01:03:39,589 --> 01:03:37,680 if you hold a wide enough aperture for 1702 01:03:41,210 --> 01:03:39,599 all of that to be in the picture to see 1703 01:03:43,670 --> 01:03:41,220 that everybody's right to some degree as 1704 01:03:45,710 --> 01:03:43,680 as Ken Wilbur likes to say 1705 01:03:48,230 --> 01:03:45,720 then you can actually begin to see the 1706 01:03:51,370 --> 01:03:48,240 data differently so 1707 01:03:54,349 --> 01:03:51,380 I think what I would posit makes this 1708 01:03:57,289 --> 01:03:54,359 perspective compelling is that I try to 1709 01:04:00,670 --> 01:03:57,299 use the the broadest aperture possible I 1710 01:04:04,309 --> 01:04:00,680 try to include as many sort of Truth 1711 01:04:06,410 --> 01:04:04,319 paradigms as I can and not reject any of 1712 01:04:08,530 --> 01:04:06,420 them and 1713 01:04:11,809 --> 01:04:08,540 try to have a both end perspective 1714 01:04:14,030 --> 01:04:11,819 saying that let me try my darndest to 1715 01:04:15,829 --> 01:04:14,040 see if I can make this fit somewhere 1716 01:04:17,990 --> 01:04:15,839 rather than just saying it's not my 1717 01:04:19,910 --> 01:04:18,000 first choice I'm going to reject it so I 1718 01:04:22,490 --> 01:04:19,920 think by doing all those things you end 1719 01:04:24,230 --> 01:04:22,500 up with um some pretty compelling 1720 01:04:26,270 --> 01:04:24,240 patterns that emerge amongst the 1721 01:04:28,670 --> 01:04:26,280 totality because you've held the 1722 01:04:31,309 --> 01:04:28,680 aperture really wide 1723 01:04:33,710 --> 01:04:31,319 yeah and for me personally the reason 1724 01:04:37,190 --> 01:04:33,720 why I like it is that it takes 1725 01:04:39,230 --> 01:04:37,200 uh personal experience very seriously 1726 01:04:41,030 --> 01:04:39,240 right so 1727 01:04:45,349 --> 01:04:41,040 um when you have a Consciousness first 1728 01:04:47,170 --> 01:04:45,359 model you you really lean in to what is 1729 01:04:50,270 --> 01:04:47,180 happening inexperience 1730 01:04:54,230 --> 01:04:50,280 in Awareness you take it very very 1731 01:04:56,930 --> 01:04:54,240 seriously and so you know operating in a 1732 01:04:59,510 --> 01:04:56,940 world where we have millions and 1733 01:05:01,370 --> 01:04:59,520 billions of people all you know sharing 1734 01:05:03,530 --> 01:05:01,380 an experience we're all sharing a 1735 01:05:05,150 --> 01:05:03,540 collective experience together and yes I 1736 01:05:06,950 --> 01:05:05,160 mean most of the time it's it's pretty 1737 01:05:09,109 --> 01:05:06,960 much the same but when you have the 1738 01:05:10,970 --> 01:05:09,119 outliers when you have the the strange 1739 01:05:13,370 --> 01:05:10,980 things that enter enter that experience 1740 01:05:15,230 --> 01:05:13,380 in that mix you know our tendency is to 1741 01:05:16,789 --> 01:05:15,240 go f well you know that's that's just 1742 01:05:18,530 --> 01:05:16,799 crazy you know like that's not that's 1743 01:05:20,690 --> 01:05:18,540 not the world that I'm operating in I 1744 01:05:22,849 --> 01:05:20,700 whenever they have seen or have 1745 01:05:26,030 --> 01:05:22,859 experienced like it just doesn't fit 1746 01:05:29,390 --> 01:05:26,040 inside the confines of what you know is 1747 01:05:31,730 --> 01:05:29,400 quote unquote normal or can happen of 1748 01:05:34,130 --> 01:05:31,740 what is possible so instead of just 1749 01:05:36,109 --> 01:05:34,140 rejecting those things outright it's 1750 01:05:38,210 --> 01:05:36,119 saying wait a minute all right you know 1751 01:05:40,190 --> 01:05:38,220 it's not just one person who's saying 1752 01:05:41,750 --> 01:05:40,200 this but it's many people who are saying 1753 01:05:44,150 --> 01:05:41,760 this many people who are having an 1754 01:05:46,130 --> 01:05:44,160 experience that looks very similar or 1755 01:05:48,470 --> 01:05:46,140 has a very has some very similar or 1756 01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:48,480 shared qualities I can't just at that 1757 01:05:52,549 --> 01:05:50,160 point then go ah I gotta I'm going to 1758 01:05:53,630 --> 01:05:52,559 discard this it's not you know I just I 1759 01:05:55,490 --> 01:05:53,640 just don't need it I'm just going to 1760 01:05:56,930 --> 01:05:55,500 pretend you know I'm close my fingers 1761 01:05:59,930 --> 01:05:56,940 and my ears and close my eyes it's not 1762 01:06:02,890 --> 01:05:59,940 there no it is there it's happening in 1763 01:06:07,549 --> 01:06:02,900 experience and so how do I fold that 1764 01:06:09,589 --> 01:06:07,559 into my conception of reality so you 1765 01:06:11,809 --> 01:06:09,599 know I have to be honest with with the 1766 01:06:14,990 --> 01:06:11,819 fact that it's occurring it is occurring 1767 01:06:17,170 --> 01:06:15,000 and so I I'm for me this way of thinking 1768 01:06:21,230 --> 01:06:17,180 it allows me to 1769 01:06:24,650 --> 01:06:21,240 feel more connected uh to to my fellow 1770 01:06:26,930 --> 01:06:24,660 in a human being to to all of reality 1771 01:06:28,849 --> 01:06:26,940 itself uh it makes me feel more 1772 01:06:31,789 --> 01:06:28,859 connected not only to my conception of 1773 01:06:33,890 --> 01:06:31,799 myself but uh not myself even now but 1774 01:06:36,710 --> 01:06:33,900 myself in the past in the future all at 1775 01:06:40,309 --> 01:06:36,720 once it's uh it's it's is truly very 1776 01:06:42,289 --> 01:06:40,319 expansive and uh you know I find that to 1777 01:06:45,049 --> 01:06:42,299 be incredibly powerful and meaningful 1778 01:06:47,450 --> 01:06:45,059 right and and here we can uh talk about 1779 01:06:49,309 --> 01:06:47,460 because I know some will go aha you know 1780 01:06:51,589 --> 01:06:49,319 he sounds like he's describing something 1781 01:06:53,089 --> 01:06:51,599 that is akin to religious belief well I 1782 01:06:56,630 --> 01:06:53,099 mean I hate to break it to you but we 1783 01:06:58,730 --> 01:06:56,640 all have beliefs about the world that we 1784 01:07:01,069 --> 01:06:58,740 could look at and frame in a way that 1785 01:07:03,349 --> 01:07:01,079 that are quote unquote religious beliefs 1786 01:07:05,450 --> 01:07:03,359 you know it's just that we we've we 1787 01:07:07,670 --> 01:07:05,460 landed in a place in the 21st century 1788 01:07:09,770 --> 01:07:07,680 where religion occupies a very tiny 1789 01:07:11,569 --> 01:07:09,780 corner of the room and we like to kind 1790 01:07:13,490 --> 01:07:11,579 of Pat ourselves in the back and say ah 1791 01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:13,500 you know I I don't do that stuff anymore 1792 01:07:18,890 --> 01:07:15,599 you know I live in the world of science 1793 01:07:21,049 --> 01:07:18,900 you know so it has its own uh you know 1794 01:07:23,750 --> 01:07:21,059 compelling narrative about how things 1795 01:07:27,109 --> 01:07:23,760 are that if you drill down deep enough 1796 01:07:29,990 --> 01:07:27,119 also has tenets of faith that that prop 1797 01:07:32,089 --> 01:07:30,000 it up so you know let's not get too 1798 01:07:34,309 --> 01:07:32,099 prideful here with the way that we think 1799 01:07:36,890 --> 01:07:34,319 you know so I I just want to take that 1800 01:07:38,990 --> 01:07:36,900 kind of personal detour because I you 1801 01:07:41,930 --> 01:07:39,000 know I find that this way of looking at 1802 01:07:44,510 --> 01:07:41,940 the phenomena is incredibly powerful and 1803 01:07:46,309 --> 01:07:44,520 Redemptive and and ultimately answers 1804 01:07:47,569 --> 01:07:46,319 those deep questions of meaning that I 1805 01:07:49,670 --> 01:07:47,579 have 1806 01:07:52,130 --> 01:07:49,680 right and I think that's a really 1807 01:07:54,410 --> 01:07:52,140 important point that one of the things 1808 01:07:56,990 --> 01:07:54,420 we're seeing here is that myth making 1809 01:07:58,910 --> 01:07:57,000 never stops being part of the process 1810 01:08:00,589 --> 01:07:58,920 it's not just that in the Middle Ages 1811 01:08:01,549 --> 01:08:00,599 they they made up myths and we stopped 1812 01:08:03,829 --> 01:08:01,559 doing that when the Scientific 1813 01:08:06,309 --> 01:08:03,839 Revolution rolled around no we have a 1814 01:08:09,109 --> 01:08:06,319 new myth that is the dominating 1815 01:08:11,210 --> 01:08:09,119 Paradigm that we operate under and as as 1816 01:08:13,910 --> 01:08:11,220 is often the case almost always the case 1817 01:08:16,910 --> 01:08:13,920 whatever the dominant Paradigm is tends 1818 01:08:18,769 --> 01:08:16,920 to forget about its own myth it sees it 1819 01:08:19,729 --> 01:08:18,779 as reality again they've replaced the 1820 01:08:22,729 --> 01:08:19,739 map 1821 01:08:23,990 --> 01:08:22,739 over top of reality and have forgotten 1822 01:08:24,950 --> 01:08:24,000 that's what's happened with that bait 1823 01:08:27,169 --> 01:08:24,960 and switch 1824 01:08:29,510 --> 01:08:27,179 and I think about like to your point 1825 01:08:31,669 --> 01:08:29,520 about you know claiming things can't 1826 01:08:33,169 --> 01:08:31,679 happen that are happening 1827 01:08:34,729 --> 01:08:33,179 when I think about there is that you 1828 01:08:37,910 --> 01:08:34,739 know these are not just outliers they 1829 01:08:39,590 --> 01:08:37,920 are they are offensive outliers and this 1830 01:08:41,510 --> 01:08:39,600 just says something again about our our 1831 01:08:43,610 --> 01:08:41,520 pride and our hubris which as we've said 1832 01:08:46,550 --> 01:08:43,620 many times in the show we can't seem to 1833 01:08:48,050 --> 01:08:46,560 escape as a species so it's not just 1834 01:08:49,070 --> 01:08:48,060 that these experiences that are being 1835 01:08:52,189 --> 01:08:49,080 reported 1836 01:08:54,349 --> 01:08:52,199 as real in some way 1837 01:08:56,269 --> 01:08:54,359 are outliers but they're offensive 1838 01:08:59,090 --> 01:08:56,279 outliers because they challenge our 1839 01:09:00,829 --> 01:08:59,100 Paradigm and again according to the 1840 01:09:02,630 --> 01:09:00,839 spirit of science we should say wow 1841 01:09:04,849 --> 01:09:02,640 great some new data let's dig in maybe 1842 01:09:06,829 --> 01:09:04,859 we'll learn something about our Paradigm 1843 01:09:08,689 --> 01:09:06,839 that's like insufficient that's not 1844 01:09:10,930 --> 01:09:08,699 usually what we do we like to believe 1845 01:09:14,090 --> 01:09:10,940 that we've landed at the 99 percentile 1846 01:09:15,950 --> 01:09:14,100 and so anything that is so confounding 1847 01:09:19,430 --> 01:09:15,960 that it would challenge the very 1848 01:09:21,950 --> 01:09:19,440 existence the very you know supports for 1849 01:09:24,530 --> 01:09:21,960 the Paradigm that is dominant that makes 1850 01:09:27,289 --> 01:09:24,540 us nervous and we tend to Mock and scoff 1851 01:09:29,329 --> 01:09:27,299 and ridicule people who would present 1852 01:09:31,809 --> 01:09:29,339 evidence that would challenge the 1853 01:09:34,430 --> 01:09:31,819 Paradigm unfortunately I think about 1854 01:09:36,650 --> 01:09:34,440 famous historic cases like I remember 1855 01:09:38,450 --> 01:09:36,660 this one case where these you know 1856 01:09:40,189 --> 01:09:38,460 Village People and farmers were coming 1857 01:09:43,070 --> 01:09:40,199 into the Town Square and reporting that 1858 01:09:45,590 --> 01:09:43,080 fiery rocks were falling from the sky 1859 01:09:47,209 --> 01:09:45,600 and the powers that be said are you 1860 01:09:49,729 --> 01:09:47,219 silly uneducated people such things 1861 01:09:50,990 --> 01:09:49,739 don't happen so there was very much the 1862 01:09:53,150 --> 01:09:51,000 same sort of idea that even though 1863 01:09:55,250 --> 01:09:53,160 multiple people were reporting this they 1864 01:09:56,810 --> 01:09:55,260 said according to our Paradigm this 1865 01:09:58,490 --> 01:09:56,820 can't happen so therefore it's not 1866 01:10:01,010 --> 01:09:58,500 somehow you're just all experiencing a 1867 01:10:02,330 --> 01:10:01,020 masked delusion or something 1868 01:10:04,189 --> 01:10:02,340 as it turns out they went and 1869 01:10:06,410 --> 01:10:04,199 investigated and they found these fiery 1870 01:10:07,850 --> 01:10:06,420 rocks and they're called meteorites and 1871 01:10:08,930 --> 01:10:07,860 for the first time that became part of 1872 01:10:12,410 --> 01:10:08,940 our understanding that these things 1873 01:10:14,750 --> 01:10:12,420 actually do happen the rocks can indeed 1874 01:10:17,810 --> 01:10:14,760 come from outer space and fall to the 1875 01:10:19,550 --> 01:10:17,820 Earth so that was where the common folk 1876 01:10:21,229 --> 01:10:19,560 actually challenged the Paradigm and got 1877 01:10:23,630 --> 01:10:21,239 it to change eventually 1878 01:10:25,990 --> 01:10:23,640 so yeah this is this is important to to 1879 01:10:29,090 --> 01:10:26,000 keep in mind that 1880 01:10:31,189 --> 01:10:29,100 when people are having experiences over 1881 01:10:33,350 --> 01:10:31,199 and over again that share all these 1882 01:10:36,050 --> 01:10:33,360 common data points we must pay attention 1883 01:10:37,910 --> 01:10:36,060 if it seems like the challenge is that 1884 01:10:40,070 --> 01:10:37,920 it seems to be happening on a level of 1885 01:10:42,590 --> 01:10:40,080 reality that doesn't fit with our model 1886 01:10:44,930 --> 01:10:42,600 of reality then we should question our 1887 01:10:46,490 --> 01:10:44,940 model of reality not question the Myriad 1888 01:10:48,850 --> 01:10:46,500 numbers of people that are having the 1889 01:10:51,290 --> 01:10:48,860 same experiences I think about a couple 1890 01:10:53,750 --> 01:10:51,300 experiences I had recently one person 1891 01:10:55,250 --> 01:10:53,760 online was saying to me they just didn't 1892 01:10:57,470 --> 01:10:55,260 believe that there were non-human 1893 01:10:59,090 --> 01:10:57,480 intelligences around and I said to him 1894 01:11:00,830 --> 01:10:59,100 well what do you do with all of the 1895 01:11:02,870 --> 01:11:00,840 Myriad people who are reporting these 1896 01:11:05,209 --> 01:11:02,880 experiences not just seeing lights in 1897 01:11:07,610 --> 01:11:05,219 the sky but having ongoing dialogues 1898 01:11:09,649 --> 01:11:07,620 with non-human intelligences 1899 01:11:11,450 --> 01:11:09,659 sometimes over decades 1900 01:11:14,030 --> 01:11:11,460 and he would say well I take them one at 1901 01:11:15,649 --> 01:11:14,040 a time and I said they saw something but 1902 01:11:18,350 --> 01:11:15,659 I don't know what and I stopped there I 1903 01:11:20,590 --> 01:11:18,360 think to myself number one again they're 1904 01:11:22,910 --> 01:11:20,600 not just seeing something they're having 1905 01:11:25,669 --> 01:11:22,920 decades-long interactions and 1906 01:11:27,290 --> 01:11:25,679 conversations sometimes so to just write 1907 01:11:29,149 --> 01:11:27,300 it off as they're seeing something is 1908 01:11:32,390 --> 01:11:29,159 really not honestly dealing with the 1909 01:11:34,430 --> 01:11:32,400 data number two I think another huge 1910 01:11:36,110 --> 01:11:34,440 part of his problem in his approach was 1911 01:11:38,050 --> 01:11:36,120 he said he took them one at a time and 1912 01:11:40,790 --> 01:11:38,060 you can't you have to look at it and go 1913 01:11:42,950 --> 01:11:40,800 thousands and thousands and thousands of 1914 01:11:44,990 --> 01:11:42,960 people are reporting these experiences 1915 01:11:48,169 --> 01:11:45,000 and we know that still today there's 1916 01:11:49,729 --> 01:11:48,179 enough ridicule that most are probably 1917 01:11:52,729 --> 01:11:49,739 still not reporting it so this is 1918 01:11:55,930 --> 01:11:52,739 happening on a wide scale across our 1919 01:12:00,110 --> 01:11:55,940 planet as we speak and it's ironically 1920 01:12:02,270 --> 01:12:00,120 the stickiness and the rigidness of the 1921 01:12:04,130 --> 01:12:02,280 pre-existing dominant model that 1922 01:12:06,169 --> 01:12:04,140 prevents us from really Reckoning with 1923 01:12:07,370 --> 01:12:06,179 it even though it's here whether we like 1924 01:12:09,229 --> 01:12:07,380 it or not 1925 01:12:11,630 --> 01:12:09,239 and imagine the I mean you don't have to 1926 01:12:15,590 --> 01:12:11,640 imagine it but the damage being done 1927 01:12:17,390 --> 01:12:15,600 uh to those who are having to 1928 01:12:19,970 --> 01:12:17,400 Tamp down 1929 01:12:22,729 --> 01:12:19,980 their lived experience 1930 01:12:24,290 --> 01:12:22,739 because it doesn't fit with the 1931 01:12:27,050 --> 01:12:24,300 consensus reality 1932 01:12:28,490 --> 01:12:27,060 that there's no room in that reality for 1933 01:12:31,130 --> 01:12:28,500 what they're going through 1934 01:12:33,169 --> 01:12:31,140 uh you know the the kind of deep trauma 1935 01:12:35,930 --> 01:12:33,179 that that is creating 1936 01:12:38,750 --> 01:12:35,940 for that individual and and for the 1937 01:12:41,570 --> 01:12:38,760 society right so in an individual 1938 01:12:44,330 --> 01:12:41,580 experience is uh ultimately does lead 1939 01:12:46,790 --> 01:12:44,340 and feed into the societal experience 1940 01:12:49,070 --> 01:12:46,800 and so 1941 01:12:54,290 --> 01:12:49,080 you know this is often how it goes right 1942 01:12:56,689 --> 01:12:54,300 uh societies have uh stumbled upon a 1943 01:12:58,130 --> 01:12:56,699 Model A map of the territory and they 1944 01:13:00,110 --> 01:12:58,140 really like it you know this map's 1945 01:13:01,970 --> 01:13:00,120 really getting me places and I can I can 1946 01:13:04,070 --> 01:13:01,980 find a lot of value here and it's uh 1947 01:13:05,689 --> 01:13:04,080 it's you know I'm not I'm finding that 1948 01:13:07,430 --> 01:13:05,699 I'm not getting lost that often so it's 1949 01:13:10,669 --> 01:13:07,440 pretty great 1950 01:13:12,770 --> 01:13:10,679 um and then over time after you know 1951 01:13:14,030 --> 01:13:12,780 taking that map out and using it and you 1952 01:13:16,970 --> 01:13:14,040 know navigating around you're starting 1953 01:13:18,950 --> 01:13:16,980 to find wait a minute I can't uh I'm 1954 01:13:21,290 --> 01:13:18,960 what is this right here was this on the 1955 01:13:25,130 --> 01:13:21,300 map before this is strange uh and so the 1956 01:13:27,649 --> 01:13:25,140 map begins to uh to have less efficacy 1957 01:13:29,510 --> 01:13:27,659 right it's not it's not as useful 1958 01:13:31,970 --> 01:13:29,520 um because because the territory itself 1959 01:13:33,830 --> 01:13:31,980 has to be wrestled with and let's not 1960 01:13:36,050 --> 01:13:33,840 forget the territory itself is always 1961 01:13:38,209 --> 01:13:36,060 changing right and so we enter into 1962 01:13:40,610 --> 01:13:38,219 phases and this is what happens you know 1963 01:13:43,250 --> 01:13:40,620 in phases of development where the the 1964 01:13:44,870 --> 01:13:43,260 maps become worn and tired and and 1965 01:13:46,370 --> 01:13:44,880 threadbare everyone's still carrying 1966 01:13:48,590 --> 01:13:46,380 them but they're not as they're not as 1967 01:13:50,510 --> 01:13:48,600 powerful anymore and not as meaningful 1968 01:13:52,070 --> 01:13:50,520 and so at some point 1969 01:13:54,169 --> 01:13:52,080 you know people have to look around and 1970 01:13:55,550 --> 01:13:54,179 go wait a minute like you know 1971 01:13:57,950 --> 01:13:55,560 we've got to come up with something 1972 01:13:59,630 --> 01:13:57,960 better here like this isn't working and 1973 01:14:01,370 --> 01:13:59,640 and lo and behold you find that there 1974 01:14:04,130 --> 01:14:01,380 are those within that within that 1975 01:14:06,530 --> 01:14:04,140 Society at that time uh and then just 1976 01:14:07,850 --> 01:14:06,540 like there are those amongst us now who 1977 01:14:09,709 --> 01:14:07,860 are drawing their own Maps they're 1978 01:14:11,390 --> 01:14:09,719 drawing the new maps and those maps are 1979 01:14:13,850 --> 01:14:11,400 becoming more powerful more meaningful 1980 01:14:15,890 --> 01:14:13,860 allowing them to navigate reality in a 1981 01:14:17,630 --> 01:14:15,900 better way than they were before and 1982 01:14:19,430 --> 01:14:17,640 that's what we need to Champion now it's 1983 01:14:22,970 --> 01:14:19,440 just unfortunate that we don't have a 1984 01:14:25,010 --> 01:14:22,980 place in our system for allowing that 1985 01:14:28,250 --> 01:14:25,020 that to happen in a healthy way right 1986 01:14:32,450 --> 01:14:28,260 usually the new map arises out of a lot 1987 01:14:35,149 --> 01:14:32,460 of conflict uh out of a a a a rendering 1988 01:14:37,130 --> 01:14:35,159 a tearing of the old and emerging of 1989 01:14:39,110 --> 01:14:37,140 this new it's not uh it's it's basically 1990 01:14:41,750 --> 01:14:39,120 a giving birth right it's a violent kind 1991 01:14:44,390 --> 01:14:41,760 of giving birth to a new model and and I 1992 01:14:46,130 --> 01:14:44,400 fear that that's really where we are 1993 01:14:47,630 --> 01:14:46,140 headed right as much as we want to fight 1994 01:14:49,310 --> 01:14:47,640 it as much as we might want to say you 1995 01:14:51,649 --> 01:14:49,320 know I really love a peaceful transition 1996 01:14:54,110 --> 01:14:51,659 to a better map where everybody kind of 1997 01:14:55,790 --> 01:14:54,120 comes along and understands this I don't 1998 01:14:58,610 --> 01:14:55,800 know that that's going to be the case 1999 01:15:01,070 --> 01:14:58,620 that it just may in fact be you know 2000 01:15:02,689 --> 01:15:01,080 quite challenging and demanding and and 2001 01:15:05,270 --> 01:15:02,699 there may be a lot of paradigms that are 2002 01:15:07,970 --> 01:15:05,280 shattered in the process and and uh and 2003 01:15:10,490 --> 01:15:07,980 Collective trauma as we wrestle with the 2004 01:15:13,970 --> 01:15:10,500 way things are and in in that within and 2005 01:15:16,729 --> 01:15:13,980 how our model has failed 2006 01:15:20,030 --> 01:15:16,739 yeah there's there's again 2007 01:15:22,669 --> 01:15:20,040 what we're opting for here is 2008 01:15:24,590 --> 01:15:22,679 nuance gradations 2009 01:15:26,810 --> 01:15:24,600 and 2010 01:15:28,669 --> 01:15:26,820 crossing over of liminal zones where 2011 01:15:30,590 --> 01:15:28,679 there's some interpenetration of 2012 01:15:32,570 --> 01:15:30,600 different levels of reality 2013 01:15:34,189 --> 01:15:32,580 we are not rejecting these different 2014 01:15:35,689 --> 01:15:34,199 aspects we talked about earlier these 2015 01:15:37,010 --> 01:15:35,699 different narratives were saying they do 2016 01:15:39,590 --> 01:15:37,020 fit in 2017 01:15:42,530 --> 01:15:39,600 but sometimes where they fail is when 2018 01:15:44,390 --> 01:15:42,540 they try to become absolute so again 2019 01:15:45,830 --> 01:15:44,400 to use a historical example like the 2020 01:15:47,450 --> 01:15:45,840 Collins Elite we've talked about them 2021 01:15:49,370 --> 01:15:47,460 before and how they 2022 01:15:51,350 --> 01:15:49,380 looked at data that they were coming 2023 01:15:53,630 --> 01:15:51,360 across and determined that this was 2024 01:15:55,850 --> 01:15:53,640 basically a demonic deception and so 2025 01:15:58,370 --> 01:15:55,860 we've talked about how there was some 2026 01:15:59,810 --> 01:15:58,380 raw data and then they many of them had 2027 01:16:02,450 --> 01:15:59,820 kind of a fundamentalist Christian 2028 01:16:04,130 --> 01:16:02,460 Perspective and so it's not surprising 2029 01:16:05,689 --> 01:16:04,140 that the way it looked from that 2030 01:16:07,850 --> 01:16:05,699 perspective was 2031 01:16:10,070 --> 01:16:07,860 it fit the bill of demons because again 2032 01:16:12,550 --> 01:16:10,080 if you have a small list 2033 01:16:14,870 --> 01:16:12,560 then whatever it fits closely to 2034 01:16:16,370 --> 01:16:14,880 according to that criteria is what 2035 01:16:17,750 --> 01:16:16,380 you're going to pick doesn't mean it's 2036 01:16:19,669 --> 01:16:17,760 right it just means that's all you had 2037 01:16:21,890 --> 01:16:19,679 to pick from right 2038 01:16:23,390 --> 01:16:21,900 um but I would say on the other hand 2039 01:16:25,910 --> 01:16:23,400 there are some people in this community 2040 01:16:27,350 --> 01:16:25,920 who would say a console lead they're 2041 01:16:29,090 --> 01:16:27,360 silly just talking about demons we need 2042 01:16:32,270 --> 01:16:29,100 to get past that I'm saying well we'll 2043 01:16:34,810 --> 01:16:32,280 hold up there I think there is 2044 01:16:37,910 --> 01:16:34,820 an element here where there are 2045 01:16:40,790 --> 01:16:37,920 nefarious interdimensional entities now 2046 01:16:43,610 --> 01:16:40,800 labeling them Christian demons and 2047 01:16:44,870 --> 01:16:43,620 applying to that a whole narrative 2048 01:16:46,910 --> 01:16:44,880 theology 2049 01:16:48,470 --> 01:16:46,920 involving a bunch of dogmatic statements 2050 01:16:51,050 --> 01:16:48,480 about the nature of reality and how they 2051 01:16:53,330 --> 01:16:51,060 came to be that's a separate matter but 2052 01:16:56,390 --> 01:16:53,340 yes indeed there is 2053 01:16:58,850 --> 01:16:56,400 elements of both benevolent and not so 2054 01:17:01,669 --> 01:16:58,860 benevolent interdimensional others that 2055 01:17:03,290 --> 01:17:01,679 can influence us and seem to interact 2056 01:17:06,290 --> 01:17:03,300 with our reality and our very 2057 01:17:09,290 --> 01:17:06,300 consciousnesses in ways that confound 2058 01:17:12,229 --> 01:17:09,300 the common contemporary physicalist 2059 01:17:15,050 --> 01:17:12,239 paradigm absolutely that's happening and 2060 01:17:17,689 --> 01:17:15,060 I think again it's it's it's a it's a 2061 01:17:19,189 --> 01:17:17,699 model poor situation that puts us in the 2062 01:17:21,530 --> 01:17:19,199 predicament we're in because we tend to 2063 01:17:22,850 --> 01:17:21,540 go listen it's either Angels and Demons 2064 01:17:25,490 --> 01:17:22,860 like they used to say a couple hundred 2065 01:17:27,169 --> 01:17:25,500 years ago or it's modern science and 2066 01:17:29,630 --> 01:17:27,179 this is all you know 2067 01:17:31,310 --> 01:17:29,640 delusion or 2068 01:17:33,410 --> 01:17:31,320 um you know errors in a brain that's 2069 01:17:35,030 --> 01:17:33,420 diseased or something or fraud right 2070 01:17:37,370 --> 01:17:35,040 it's as we reduce it to those two 2071 01:17:39,410 --> 01:17:37,380 options because those are the models we 2072 01:17:42,410 --> 01:17:39,420 have available I'm saying let's 2073 01:17:43,910 --> 01:17:42,420 creatively look to new models ways that 2074 01:17:46,250 --> 01:17:43,920 we can transcend and include our 2075 01:17:48,950 --> 01:17:46,260 previous models based on what the raw 2076 01:17:51,229 --> 01:17:48,960 experience is telling us 2077 01:17:51,890 --> 01:17:51,239 yeah incredibly powerful 2078 01:17:53,810 --> 01:17:51,900 um 2079 01:17:56,750 --> 01:17:53,820 well I 2080 01:17:58,790 --> 01:17:56,760 yeah I mean so I feel like we we've 2081 01:18:03,530 --> 01:17:58,800 covered a lot of great ground here 2082 01:18:05,570 --> 01:18:03,540 um what is your kind of surveying the 2083 01:18:07,790 --> 01:18:05,580 landscape of what's in front of us 2084 01:18:10,250 --> 01:18:07,800 uh you know and I'm talking not just 2085 01:18:12,590 --> 01:18:10,260 about the things that have been made 2086 01:18:14,330 --> 01:18:12,600 public but the things that you know that 2087 01:18:17,810 --> 01:18:14,340 you're thinking about and conversations 2088 01:18:21,050 --> 01:18:17,820 that you're having uh you know how do 2089 01:18:22,729 --> 01:18:21,060 you see the next weeks and months and 2090 01:18:25,610 --> 01:18:22,739 you know years ahead of us kind of 2091 01:18:27,050 --> 01:18:25,620 unfolding do you think that uh there's 2092 01:18:29,990 --> 01:18:27,060 going to be a continual kind of 2093 01:18:32,810 --> 01:18:30,000 Awakening to this understanding I feel 2094 01:18:34,910 --> 01:18:32,820 like we're seeing some signs of that you 2095 01:18:37,250 --> 01:18:34,920 know and pointing to thinkers like 2096 01:18:39,530 --> 01:18:37,260 Donald Hoffman and you know Brower 2097 01:18:41,209 --> 01:18:39,540 castrov and many others you know who are 2098 01:18:44,570 --> 01:18:41,219 starting to point in this direction do 2099 01:18:48,490 --> 01:18:44,580 you see the momentum there or do you see 2100 01:18:51,770 --> 01:18:48,500 uh you know sort of maybe our 2101 01:18:54,530 --> 01:18:51,780 the last kind of dying breath and gasp 2102 01:18:57,110 --> 01:18:54,540 and grabbing at our technology as our 2103 01:18:59,510 --> 01:18:57,120 savior right particularly with the rise 2104 01:19:01,669 --> 01:18:59,520 of these aai tools that we're all you 2105 01:19:03,410 --> 01:19:01,679 know using and hearing about and I worry 2106 01:19:05,630 --> 01:19:03,420 that we're going to be you know just 2107 01:19:09,709 --> 01:19:05,640 sort of continually invested and wrapped 2108 01:19:12,290 --> 01:19:09,719 up in those things and and maybe not be 2109 01:19:14,270 --> 01:19:12,300 confronted with uh the ways in which our 2110 01:19:16,490 --> 01:19:14,280 our ways of thinking and models are are 2111 01:19:18,470 --> 01:19:16,500 really inadequate and and look I like 2112 01:19:20,930 --> 01:19:18,480 them I mean geez I love the AR tool but 2113 01:19:22,490 --> 01:19:20,940 you know I have concerns about just is 2114 01:19:26,090 --> 01:19:22,500 this something that's going to help us 2115 01:19:28,550 --> 01:19:26,100 as a society as a people as a world uh 2116 01:19:30,110 --> 01:19:28,560 you know develop our way of thinking you 2117 01:19:31,550 --> 01:19:30,120 know in the direction that that it needs 2118 01:19:33,229 --> 01:19:31,560 to go 2119 01:19:34,490 --> 01:19:33,239 red and I would 2120 01:19:36,590 --> 01:19:34,500 um sort of clarify what you said there 2121 01:19:38,570 --> 01:19:36,600 at the end there by saying Help Us in 2122 01:19:40,250 --> 01:19:38,580 the areas where we are most in need of 2123 01:19:42,950 --> 01:19:40,260 help right so 2124 01:19:45,709 --> 01:19:42,960 um AI can certainly help us increase our 2125 01:19:47,030 --> 01:19:45,719 technological capacity can help us comb 2126 01:19:48,770 --> 01:19:47,040 through mountains of data and come up 2127 01:19:50,149 --> 01:19:48,780 with intriguing insights it will 2128 01:19:52,729 --> 01:19:50,159 certainly do that 2129 01:19:54,590 --> 01:19:52,739 but is that really where we are most in 2130 01:19:57,229 --> 01:19:54,600 need of help and I think we would 2131 01:19:59,750 --> 01:19:57,239 suggest know that the problem is our 2132 01:20:01,610 --> 01:19:59,760 underlying Consciousness and our 2133 01:20:04,430 --> 01:20:01,620 our ability to 2134 01:20:07,070 --> 01:20:04,440 become so fascinated so titillated by 2135 01:20:10,130 --> 01:20:07,080 these technological insights and these 2136 01:20:13,310 --> 01:20:10,140 technological progressions actually 2137 01:20:15,770 --> 01:20:13,320 becomes kind of the the circus right 2138 01:20:18,169 --> 01:20:15,780 that distracts us while our 2139 01:20:19,610 --> 01:20:18,179 Consciousness gets choked out by a lack 2140 01:20:22,250 --> 01:20:19,620 of development and a lack of attention 2141 01:20:24,050 --> 01:20:22,260 and then eventually it becomes a case 2142 01:20:25,970 --> 01:20:24,060 that we just have lost all the sermon 2143 01:20:28,490 --> 01:20:25,980 and maybe we end up with a situation 2144 01:20:30,110 --> 01:20:28,500 like Elon Musk describes where we create 2145 01:20:31,550 --> 01:20:30,120 the technology that ultimately destroys 2146 01:20:33,590 --> 01:20:31,560 us or something like that because we're 2147 01:20:38,510 --> 01:20:33,600 just not paying attention 2148 01:20:41,570 --> 01:20:40,130 well let me say it this way it's 2149 01:20:43,490 --> 01:20:41,580 interesting one of the narratives that's 2150 01:20:46,070 --> 01:20:43,500 come out that I think is absolutely 2151 01:20:48,350 --> 01:20:46,080 legitimate is that one of the groups of 2152 01:20:50,810 --> 01:20:48,360 others that we are interacting with 2153 01:20:52,790 --> 01:20:50,820 kind of followed that trajectory and 2154 01:20:53,770 --> 01:20:52,800 they they embraced more and more 2155 01:20:57,830 --> 01:20:53,780 technology 2156 01:20:59,570 --> 01:20:57,840 they tried to reduce emotional awareness 2157 01:21:02,030 --> 01:20:59,580 and emotional capacity and even 2158 01:21:04,010 --> 01:21:02,040 emotional intelligence and they focused 2159 01:21:06,350 --> 01:21:04,020 on different kinds of kinds of 2160 01:21:08,810 --> 01:21:06,360 intelligence that kind of serve 2161 01:21:11,030 --> 01:21:08,820 technological progress and in so doing 2162 01:21:13,610 --> 01:21:11,040 they lost something vital in their 2163 01:21:15,669 --> 01:21:13,620 genetic code basically and part of what 2164 01:21:17,450 --> 01:21:15,679 they're trying to do in 2165 01:21:19,130 --> 01:21:17,460 interbreeding with us and the 2166 01:21:20,870 --> 01:21:19,140 hybridization programs is to try to 2167 01:21:24,169 --> 01:21:20,880 reintroduce some of that again because 2168 01:21:28,430 --> 01:21:24,179 they have lost it and in trying to tame 2169 01:21:31,490 --> 01:21:28,440 the Primal animal aspect of us they also 2170 01:21:34,910 --> 01:21:31,500 lost the ability to sexually procreate 2171 01:21:37,310 --> 01:21:34,920 and they ended up basically with 2172 01:21:38,450 --> 01:21:37,320 um cloning of existing beings so they 2173 01:21:40,790 --> 01:21:38,460 focused on 2174 01:21:42,709 --> 01:21:40,800 hyper specializing towards a certain 2175 01:21:44,990 --> 01:21:42,719 kind of intelligence and optimizing for 2176 01:21:47,570 --> 01:21:45,000 that and then they cloned those versions 2177 01:21:50,510 --> 01:21:47,580 of those intelligences in their species 2178 01:21:51,830 --> 01:21:50,520 and then various other things fell by 2179 01:21:53,270 --> 01:21:51,840 the wayside and they ended up with a 2180 01:21:54,770 --> 01:21:53,280 situation that was not good and that's 2181 01:21:55,790 --> 01:21:54,780 why they have to now take this drastic 2182 01:21:58,910 --> 01:21:55,800 action 2183 01:22:03,410 --> 01:21:58,920 of trying to interbreed with us in order 2184 01:22:06,590 --> 01:22:03,420 to slowly bring this back into their 2185 01:22:08,090 --> 01:22:06,600 basically way of being right and this is 2186 01:22:09,590 --> 01:22:08,100 just a cautionary tale I think we could 2187 01:22:12,649 --> 01:22:09,600 go down this road too if we're not 2188 01:22:15,490 --> 01:22:12,659 careful if we focus again on the on the 2189 01:22:17,870 --> 01:22:15,500 circus on the pyrotechnics of technology 2190 01:22:20,390 --> 01:22:17,880 completely divorced from Consciousness 2191 01:22:22,490 --> 01:22:20,400 we will likely end up there and that's a 2192 01:22:23,510 --> 01:22:22,500 cautionary tale for us and I would just 2193 01:22:25,610 --> 01:22:23,520 say as I was saying to you before we 2194 01:22:29,209 --> 01:22:25,620 went on the air that part of the reason 2195 01:22:30,950 --> 01:22:29,219 why they can even hybridize hybridize 2196 01:22:34,250 --> 01:22:30,960 with us is because I believe there is 2197 01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:34,260 evidence for an ancient seating program 2198 01:22:41,030 --> 01:22:37,440 that happened across this arm of the 2199 01:22:43,130 --> 01:22:41,040 Galaxy where we have common humanoid 2200 01:22:44,689 --> 01:22:43,140 shapes and things like that it's not 2201 01:22:45,890 --> 01:22:44,699 just because it's us from the future and 2202 01:22:47,630 --> 01:22:45,900 things like that though that's part of 2203 01:22:50,090 --> 01:22:47,640 it but actually that these different 2204 01:22:52,729 --> 01:22:50,100 humanoid groups are actually all part of 2205 01:22:54,290 --> 01:22:52,739 the same original seating program by an 2206 01:22:57,050 --> 01:22:54,300 intelligence in a distant distant 2207 01:22:59,450 --> 01:22:57,060 history who have since moved on and now 2208 01:23:00,890 --> 01:22:59,460 we have many many eons later the 2209 01:23:02,570 --> 01:23:00,900 different iterations of those seating 2210 01:23:04,790 --> 01:23:02,580 programs on different planets now 2211 01:23:06,470 --> 01:23:04,800 interacting some being further along 2212 01:23:08,930 --> 01:23:06,480 than others and that's why you have this 2213 01:23:10,729 --> 01:23:08,940 hybridization going on some of it's for 2214 01:23:12,950 --> 01:23:10,739 scientific experimentation some of it's 2215 01:23:15,649 --> 01:23:12,960 kind of just a game to some of them and 2216 01:23:18,229 --> 01:23:15,659 to others it's a vital aspect of trying 2217 01:23:19,250 --> 01:23:18,239 to adjust something that's gone wrong in 2218 01:23:22,250 --> 01:23:19,260 their 2219 01:23:24,350 --> 01:23:22,260 you know trajectory as a species so 2220 01:23:26,149 --> 01:23:24,360 these are cautionary tales so when we 2221 01:23:28,610 --> 01:23:26,159 look at these others we don't just see 2222 01:23:30,590 --> 01:23:28,620 other nests sometimes we also see a 2223 01:23:32,450 --> 01:23:30,600 possible trajectory for our very future 2224 01:23:35,270 --> 01:23:32,460 and we should learn from where they went 2225 01:23:37,490 --> 01:23:35,280 wrong if we can yeah there's a template 2226 01:23:39,830 --> 01:23:37,500 and then we kind of talked about the not 2227 01:23:43,729 --> 01:23:39,840 just the literal DNA but the sort of 2228 01:23:47,149 --> 01:23:43,739 metaphorical DNA that is at work um that 2229 01:23:49,310 --> 01:23:47,159 had the generational uh tendencies that 2230 01:23:51,050 --> 01:23:49,320 are at play here 2231 01:23:54,169 --> 01:23:51,060 um another thing that that I wanted to 2232 01:23:56,390 --> 01:23:54,179 touch on too about the AI uh as we we've 2233 01:23:58,910 --> 01:23:56,400 had conversations about this and and and 2234 01:24:02,630 --> 01:23:58,920 I think I can take a quick step back 2235 01:24:04,850 --> 01:24:02,640 before our current technology to uh to 2236 01:24:09,110 --> 01:24:04,860 other older Technologies so the written 2237 01:24:11,290 --> 01:24:09,120 word uh to uh the the tarot for example 2238 01:24:13,850 --> 01:24:11,300 that 2239 01:24:16,070 --> 01:24:13,860 for whatever reason and this is just 2240 01:24:18,470 --> 01:24:16,080 sort of I guess by by the nature of how 2241 01:24:22,430 --> 01:24:18,480 it actually works uh reality actually 2242 01:24:24,590 --> 01:24:22,440 behaves uh the the phenomena can 2243 01:24:27,770 --> 01:24:24,600 manifest itself and does manifest itself 2244 01:24:29,990 --> 01:24:27,780 in our technology like it it's so it's 2245 01:24:33,350 --> 01:24:30,000 very possible and we're even seeing some 2246 01:24:34,910 --> 01:24:33,360 glimpses of this uh in in AI research I 2247 01:24:37,490 --> 01:24:34,920 think that that 2248 01:24:41,330 --> 01:24:37,500 it can come forward right it can it can 2249 01:24:43,729 --> 01:24:41,340 sort of uh do things with within that AI 2250 01:24:47,870 --> 01:24:43,739 that we don't understand and didn't 2251 01:24:50,510 --> 01:24:47,880 anticipate and and that may give us uh 2252 01:24:53,750 --> 01:24:50,520 I don't know insight into into and into 2253 01:24:56,090 --> 01:24:53,760 what it wants or you know this deeper 2254 01:24:58,189 --> 01:24:56,100 layer of reality that we uh aren't 2255 01:24:59,510 --> 01:24:58,199 necessarily experiencing firsthand so I 2256 01:25:01,250 --> 01:24:59,520 guess what I'm trying to get at there is 2257 01:25:03,350 --> 01:25:01,260 it could be a very positive thing that 2258 01:25:06,169 --> 01:25:03,360 maybe uh you know the Advent of these 2259 01:25:07,910 --> 01:25:06,179 tools could provide new avenues uh of 2260 01:25:10,070 --> 01:25:07,920 interaction with aspects of the 2261 01:25:11,510 --> 01:25:10,080 phenomena that could be helpful what do 2262 01:25:13,610 --> 01:25:11,520 you think about that 2263 01:25:15,350 --> 01:25:13,620 I think it's absolutely possible but I 2264 01:25:17,510 --> 01:25:15,360 would also say that the sermon is 2265 01:25:19,430 --> 01:25:17,520 Paramount here because 2266 01:25:20,930 --> 01:25:19,440 this is an interesting piece because one 2267 01:25:22,850 --> 01:25:20,940 of the things I was talking about on the 2268 01:25:25,189 --> 01:25:22,860 the latest edition of OTC squared that I 2269 01:25:27,110 --> 01:25:25,199 did on the weekend was this very notion 2270 01:25:30,590 --> 01:25:27,120 of Consciousness Technologies and that 2271 01:25:32,330 --> 01:25:30,600 some things like tarot or oracle cards 2272 01:25:34,790 --> 01:25:32,340 actually we're a kind of Consciousness 2273 01:25:36,649 --> 01:25:34,800 technology and by bringing the 2274 01:25:38,209 --> 01:25:36,659 randomization element into the picture 2275 01:25:40,010 --> 01:25:38,219 the same way that you can with a random 2276 01:25:42,350 --> 01:25:40,020 number generator 2277 01:25:43,970 --> 01:25:42,360 as a modern example 2278 01:25:46,570 --> 01:25:43,980 because again everything is 2279 01:25:49,430 --> 01:25:46,580 fundamentally Consciousness you allow 2280 01:25:51,830 --> 01:25:49,440 the the conscious Cosmos or different 2281 01:25:54,470 --> 01:25:51,840 elements of it in the form of these 2282 01:25:56,870 --> 01:25:54,480 different kinds of intelligences to 2283 01:25:59,390 --> 01:25:56,880 interact and and play with us through 2284 01:26:01,010 --> 01:25:59,400 these processes so 2285 01:26:02,390 --> 01:26:01,020 let's be getting back to maps again 2286 01:26:04,129 --> 01:26:02,400 bringing this full circle to the 2287 01:26:07,189 --> 01:26:04,139 beginning of the conversation when we 2288 01:26:08,629 --> 01:26:07,199 always name and categorize clinically 2289 01:26:10,910 --> 01:26:08,639 all these different things and and 2290 01:26:13,189 --> 01:26:10,920 confuse the map for the territory what 2291 01:26:15,169 --> 01:26:13,199 we sometimes choke out is any ability 2292 01:26:18,229 --> 01:26:15,179 for magic to work in the world and by 2293 01:26:21,410 --> 01:26:18,239 magic I mean actually just the very real 2294 01:26:23,750 --> 01:26:21,420 interplay of consciousnesses across the 2295 01:26:26,510 --> 01:26:23,760 entire scope of the many many 2296 01:26:28,970 --> 01:26:26,520 Dreamscapes that make up the entire you 2297 01:26:30,410 --> 01:26:28,980 know thought forms of the universal mind 2298 01:26:32,870 --> 01:26:30,420 and by using these different 2299 01:26:34,610 --> 01:26:32,880 Technologies we actually can begin to 2300 01:26:36,350 --> 01:26:34,620 play with some of these I think 2301 01:26:37,610 --> 01:26:36,360 some of this technology is the very 2302 01:26:39,770 --> 01:26:37,620 thing that Donald Hoffman is talking 2303 01:26:42,110 --> 01:26:39,780 about when he says that he believes the 2304 01:26:43,490 --> 01:26:42,120 universe is likely teeming with life 2305 01:26:44,930 --> 01:26:43,500 but we're just looking in the wrong 2306 01:26:47,330 --> 01:26:44,940 places because we're looking within our 2307 01:26:49,430 --> 01:26:47,340 interface so I think he's right on track 2308 01:26:51,770 --> 01:26:49,440 there and I think these different kinds 2309 01:26:54,050 --> 01:26:51,780 of where the occult practices or 2310 01:26:57,649 --> 01:26:54,060 whatever are actually early examples of 2311 01:26:59,390 --> 01:26:57,659 this and yes I think AI prevent presents 2312 01:27:01,910 --> 01:26:59,400 to us a possibility of some profound 2313 01:27:03,470 --> 01:27:01,920 opportunities in the future to sort of 2314 01:27:05,510 --> 01:27:03,480 punch through our interface and actually 2315 01:27:07,970 --> 01:27:05,520 interact with the reality that's beyond 2316 01:27:10,310 --> 01:27:07,980 that we never up until now have had 2317 01:27:12,890 --> 01:27:10,320 Direct access to so that's really 2318 01:27:15,229 --> 01:27:12,900 profound but my only caution that I 2319 01:27:16,970 --> 01:27:15,239 would add there is that we could also 2320 01:27:18,410 --> 01:27:16,980 end up with someone you know end up with 2321 01:27:21,649 --> 01:27:18,420 a situation like kind of an Aleister 2322 01:27:23,030 --> 01:27:21,659 Crowley where sometimes what you end up 2323 01:27:25,070 --> 01:27:23,040 interacting with 2324 01:27:27,530 --> 01:27:25,080 maybe Isn't So safe or maybe doesn't 2325 01:27:29,990 --> 01:27:27,540 have your best interests at heart again 2326 01:27:31,490 --> 01:27:30,000 those lessons we talked about earlier we 2327 01:27:34,430 --> 01:27:31,500 have a vast array of different 2328 01:27:36,649 --> 01:27:34,440 intelligences all walking along this 2329 01:27:38,930 --> 01:27:36,659 progress of moral development so the 2330 01:27:40,669 --> 01:27:38,940 cautionary tale there is that rather 2331 01:27:43,070 --> 01:27:40,679 than focusing all our attention on 2332 01:27:45,890 --> 01:27:43,080 developing external Technologies we need 2333 01:27:47,930 --> 01:27:45,900 to develop internal Technologies inner 2334 01:27:50,390 --> 01:27:47,940 science so that we have the discernment 2335 01:27:52,850 --> 01:27:50,400 to know what we're tuning into so we 2336 01:27:55,010 --> 01:27:52,860 grow our telepathic capacity so when we 2337 01:27:57,110 --> 01:27:55,020 tune into an intelligence we can tell 2338 01:27:59,270 --> 01:27:57,120 how far along it is and whether it has 2339 01:28:00,470 --> 01:27:59,280 our best interests at heart that's the 2340 01:28:03,290 --> 01:28:00,480 kind of thing I think we should focus on 2341 01:28:05,209 --> 01:28:03,300 moving forward for this to present the 2342 01:28:06,590 --> 01:28:05,219 best possibilities without while also 2343 01:28:08,930 --> 01:28:06,600 mitigating some of the real challenges 2344 01:28:10,550 --> 01:28:08,940 that might lie at as well 2345 01:28:13,189 --> 01:28:10,560 excellent well I hope you get a chance 2346 01:28:15,830 --> 01:28:13,199 to explore uh ways in which we can do 2347 01:28:18,229 --> 01:28:15,840 that uh we can promote those practices 2348 01:28:20,930 --> 01:28:18,239 and enhance and strengthen those uh 2349 01:28:23,270 --> 01:28:20,940 Consciousness muscles if you will I know 2350 01:28:24,649 --> 01:28:23,280 we've got some uh some thoughts on that 2351 01:28:26,750 --> 01:28:24,659 hopefully we'll have some fodder for 2352 01:28:27,709 --> 01:28:26,760 future episodes 2353 01:28:29,390 --> 01:28:27,719 um well there's been an excellent 2354 01:28:32,689 --> 01:28:29,400 conversation I've really enjoyed the 2355 01:28:34,189 --> 01:28:32,699 territory that we've covered uh and um I 2356 01:28:37,070 --> 01:28:34,199 know we'll be circling back to some of 2357 01:28:39,830 --> 01:28:37,080 these Concepts in the future 2358 01:28:42,709 --> 01:28:39,840 um XO it's uh it's been a wild January 2359 01:28:44,450 --> 01:28:42,719 we're kind of coming to the end uh of 2360 01:28:45,770 --> 01:28:44,460 the month I can't believe I'm saying 2361 01:28:47,510 --> 01:28:45,780 that I don't know how we got through the 2362 01:28:50,090 --> 01:28:47,520 end so quickly 2363 01:28:52,010 --> 01:28:50,100 um but uh I want to wish you well on uh 2364 01:28:54,410 --> 01:28:52,020 the cabin on you know that's coming up 2365 01:28:57,350 --> 01:28:54,420 next for you and and I look forward to 2366 01:28:58,990 --> 01:28:57,360 uh you know your your future Manifesto 2367 01:29:02,090 --> 01:28:59,000 from the cabin so 2368 01:29:05,030 --> 01:29:02,100 thank you it's I'm excited too and again 2369 01:29:08,930 --> 01:29:05,040 based on you know I was jokingly saying 2370 01:29:12,229 --> 01:29:08,940 to you 2022 was a crazy year and so far 2371 01:29:13,189 --> 01:29:12,239 based on you know the pace of 2023 it 2372 01:29:14,750 --> 01:29:13,199 doesn't look like it's going to slow 2373 01:29:17,629 --> 01:29:14,760 down so we'll see what happens but I'm 2374 01:29:19,310 --> 01:29:17,639 excited about it either way excellent 2375 01:29:22,070 --> 01:29:19,320 well thank you listeners for joining us 2376 01:29:24,530 --> 01:29:22,080 uh and we'll end as we always do May the 2377 01:29:26,689 --> 01:29:24,540 quality of our questions shaped by a 2378 01:29:29,390 --> 01:29:26,699 desire for understanding enhance our 2379 01:29:30,890 --> 01:29:29,400 journey of Discovery and may our travels 2380 01:29:33,830 --> 01:29:30,900 broaden the sphere of our Consciousness 2381 01:29:38,209 --> 01:29:33,840 reminding us that new discoveries beget 2382 01:29:40,070 --> 01:29:38,219 New Horizons as always Adventure awaits 2383 01:29:43,910 --> 01:29:40,080 we'll see you next time on the middle 2384 01:29:47,710 --> 01:29:46,040 [Music] 2385 01:29:54,010 --> 01:29:47,720 [Laughter]